Can we stop pretending that Path of Exile is free to play?

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yamface wrote:

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Nubatron wrote:

We should address the P2W elements in POE I suppose. These things really need addressed within the game:

-Needing to wait for your energy bar to refill so you can do more instances is awful. Having to pay for energy just screams P2W.
-Paying for DPS and defensive boosters in order to be able to beat end game bosses is garbage.
-Buying a level 60 character to skip the leveling process really puts people that want to try out new builds but don't have money at a disadvantage.
-Experience boosters really gives an advantage to people who can pay.
-The ability to buy a Headhunter from the GGG store is just plain not fair.
-Why would anyone grind currency when the GGG store just sells it to you? They need to stop that.
-Credit Card warriors are dominating the game over skilled players through purchasing equipment in the RMAH.
-I don't understand how paying for resurrect in hardcore is a thing. How can it be hardcore if you can buy your way out of death?
-The White Rhoa pet that costs $100 and gives 10% boost to drop "luck" (IIR/IIQ) is clearly a big advantage to those that can afford it.

They really need to remove these from POE.

Listing more drastic p2w methods does not make lesser p2w elements any less p2w. Like if you're trying to be funny at least do it right.

All that has been debated is the F2P elements. Not being F2P does not make it P2W. This is an error in logic.

I leave each league with 100's of unused empty tabs. Have I won yet?

EDIT: Wolcen is not F2P. It must be P2W as well I suppose.

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Nubatron wrote:

All that has been debated is the F2P elements. Not being F2P does not make it P2W. This is an error in logic.

I leave each league with 100's of unused empty tabs. Have I won yet?

EDIT: Wolcen is not F2P. It must be P2W as well I suppose.

You listed drastic p2w elements in an attempt to diminish a lesser p2w element. It does not make lesser p2w things any less p2w. Nowhere in that list was any mention of f2p.

I agree f2p and p2w are not mutually exclusive. I don't know why you're bringing that up because I havent said anything about that.

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Nubatron wrote:

Have I won yet?

This question falls into a classical trap. p2w is a misnomer.

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yamface wrote:

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Nubatron wrote:

All that has been debated is the F2P elements. Not being F2P does not make it P2W. This is an error in logic.

I leave each league with 100's of unused empty tabs. Have I won yet?

EDIT: Wolcen is not F2P. It must be P2W as well I suppose.

You listed drastic p2w elements in an attempt to diminish a lesser p2w element. It does not make lesser p2w things any less p2w. Nowhere in that list was any mention of f2p.

I agree f2p and p2w are not mutually exclusive. I don't know why you're bringing that up because I havent said anything about that.

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Nubatron wrote:

Have I won yet?

This question falls into a classical trap. p2w is a misnomer.

Actually, I listed real P2W elements. Stash tabs are not P2W, not in the context that GGG uses them. They only make the argument about the game being F2P questionable.

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ajo wrote:

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Nubatron wrote:

All that has been debated is the F2P elements. Not being F2P does not make it P2W. This is an error in logic.

Not really, because the more pay-to-win elements a game has, the less free-to-play it becomes because they are at the opposite side of the spectrum. It's indeed logical and relevant to the topic.

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Nubatron wrote:

I leave each league with 100's of unused empty tabs. Have I won yet?

Ah, retreating to the default straw man are we?

You clearly don't know what a strawman is.

As I've clearly stated several times, the benefits of tabs diminishes to nothing. Tabs provide a basic function in the game that once achieved, provides no more value.

This places the game in the pay to play category. Unless you think there are other things in the game that provide in game advantages? Maybe character slots? :)

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Nubatron wrote:

Actually, I listed real P2W elements. Stash tabs are not P2W, not in the context that GGG uses them. They only make the argument about the game being F2P questionable.

Just because the advantages of stash tabs taper off the more you buy doesn't make the game not p2w.

If I play a mmo that let's you buy gear that is superior to anything obtainable ingame, that is p2w. You know what happens if I buy a second set of that gear? Nothing. What happens if I buy a third set? Nothing.

Every diehard fan can twist these things and say "Oh well you just need to buy this once, so it's not p2w".

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yamface wrote:

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Nubatron wrote:

Actually, I listed real P2W elements. Stash tabs are not P2W, not in the context that GGG uses them. They only make the argument about the game being F2P questionable.

Just because the advantages of stash tabs taper off the more you buy doesn't make the game not p2w.

If I play a mmo that let's you buy gear that is superior to anything obtainable ingame, that is p2w. You know what happens if I buy a second set of that gear? Nothing. What happens if I buy a third set? Nothing.

Every diehard fan can twist these things and say "Oh well you just need to buy this once, so it's not p2w".

It absolutely does matter. I suspect even that 2nd set of armor can still be sold in game for in game currency.

A game costs $50-75. Spend that much on POE and you will have nearly exhausted what you would consider POE's "P2W". That's about how much a game costs. Through that context, the F2P is just an extensive demo without gated content.

True P2W games continuously push you toward needing to pay to progress and there is no end to that. The fact that it ends in poe (and is still debatable about being required) makes it pay to play.

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Nubatron wrote:

It absolutely does matter. I suspect even that 2nd set of armor can still be sold in game for in game currency.

A game costs $50-75. Spend that much on POE and you will have nearly exhausted what you would consider POE's "P2W". That's about how much a game costs. Through that context, the F2P is just an extensive demo without gated content.

True P2W games continuously push you toward needing to pay to progress and there is no end to that. The fact that it ends in poe (and is still debatable about being required) makes it pay to play.

Mate most mmos soulbind gear to your character. The second set of gear is actually worthless.

It's still p2w btw, because the problem isn't the second set of gear, it's the first. Add in that a lot these p2w mmos are designed with horizontal gear progression, in other words that gear that you bought will remain superior for the remainder of the game's lifespan, so you can even say this is a 1 time buy just like you're saying with stash tabs.

If you want a p2p game model, this game needs to have price tag on it.

Its not real f2p, that's why i gave the negative review on steam.
It's a pay to play game and i think there is nothing to discuss anything about that because it's a fact.

I really cant see how poe is p2p.

Can you do all content ?-Yes
Can you trade ?-Yes
Can you have many characters at the same time (24)?-Yes

Yes,you cant dump everything you get in 4 tabs without having to clear your stash at some point.But thats all.The gear you need is on your character.The currency you need to buy any item you want doesnt need much space to store.

Now if you want to try crafting or something where you actually need to have tons of items to work with,yes maybe then you would need that extra space.

Anything further from what you are offered for free is just a luxury.If you came here for a free game,thats what you got.

You could say that nothing is "free",the free players are just here to attract the ones that want to invest in the game,but you are not limited in any way as a free player.

If you play for free there isnt much room for you to complain.

-(dont attack my post,just a calm opinion thanks)

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yamface wrote:

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Nubatron wrote:

It absolutely does matter. I suspect even that 2nd set of armor can still be sold in game for in game currency.

A game costs $50-75. Spend that much on POE and you will have nearly exhausted what you would consider POE's "P2W". That's about how much a game costs. Through that context, the F2P is just an extensive demo without gated content.

True P2W games continuously push you toward needing to pay to progress and there is no end to that. The fact that it ends in poe (and is still debatable about being required) makes it pay to play.

Mate most mmos soulbind gear to your character. The second set of gear is actually worthless.

It's still p2w btw, because the problem isn't the second set of gear, it's the first. Add in that a lot these p2w mmos are designed with horizontal gear progression, in other words that gear that you bought will remain superior for the remainder of the game's lifespan, so you can even say this is a 1 time buy just like you're saying with stash tabs.

If you want a p2p game model, this game needs to have price tag on it.

The clear distinction between p2p and p2w is that one has diminishing returns, else many p2p games would would also meet your criteria for p2w.

The D3 demo back in the day let you get to the Skeleton King, then you had to pay to continue (by buying the whole game). That was a nice little paywall, which is absolutely a feature of P2W. You literally could not win that game, which you were able to play to a point, without paying that money. Players who paid money were able to do things in that game and access features that players who did not could not access. I would not have classified that as P2W.

The only distinction for POE is that you can actually continue playing (there is no paywall) and decide how many stash tabs you want to buy in the game -- the total cost of the game is flexible. If you want to stop at 0, you absolutely can and it is proven doable. If you want to stop at $75 (less than D3 with all the expansions), you can and you'll have more than you'll ever need. Or, you can keep buying them and get no advantage whatsoever.

P2W absolutely requires a continuous push for money to progress, else P2P stumbles into your definition for any game with a demo. I have zero incentive to pay anything into GGG at this point in terms of stash tabs.

GGG should just change their marketing to the most extensive demo in the genre without any gated content.