Can we stop pretending that Path of Exile is free to play?

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

People complain about bots, and their impact on the economy.

You can't grant premium tabs to free accounts when they already get exploited by bots....

Sure, it be nice if the default accounts got more space but cmon people think about the consequences beyond.

You make an excellent point, IMHO.

edit: actually I just went and looked at a previous post you wrote that Boem then responded to and then Boem complained because I didn't respond to.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2772957/page/56#p22934179

I'm sorry I didn't respond earlier but I didn't simply because I agreed with everything you said. I really don't understand what Boem thought you were saying? As a matter of fact you said, "Obviously, tabs are still an advantage when used efficiently" which is exactly what I was arguing at the time??????? So I'm really confused trying to figure out WTF Boem was going on about???????????????????

@Turtle

Having more tabs isn't this clear cut advantage that guarantees you win or make more than the next guy.

And I used myself several times as an example of the course of this thread, namely in time lost micromanaging low value.

Also, there's no guarantee one makes more just because they have more tabs than the next guy either. And, having that extra space can actually prove detrimental given it reinforces bad habits.

But the bottom line is these tabs don't do the "winning". It's one's accumulation of knowledge that dictates how much ones makes or how far they progress through end game.

For a hypothetical example, let's say we give a brand new player 100 tabs (or whatever hypothetical number) and have me start a fresh account running and limit myself to just the 4 tabs. Assuming we aren't introducing outside variables like a hefty cash prize or vacation, I'm heavily favored to make more despite the disadvantage of severely limited space because I'd be starting with in depth working knowledge and the other player would not.

That's not to say I couldn't be outdone, a new player grouping heavily with knowledgeable friends and getting donations from them and others could offset that initial lack of knowledge.

The point is that it's the knowledge that has far more influence to "winning" than just investing hundreds into extra storage. Even in my own case growing as a player, it wasn't the extra space that made it possible for me to beat Uber Elder and Uber Atziri. And even when it comes to pure profit, it's a deep understanding of the market that factors most.

A few months ago, some guy rage quit because he vendored a mirror having no idea of its value (posted a thread somewhere now lost to the abyss). If he only had the knowledge before vendoring something that doesn't even take up a lot of space...

Paying for something that doesn't automatically let you win does not mean it's not p2w.

The chinese revive token is p2w as fuck. You don't "win" anything by just resurrecting in hc with this, but it's a pretty p2w item let's get real.

I've pvp'ed people in other games who bought gear that was superior to anything obtainable ingame, yet I still won once in a while.

Almost nothing that is p2w these days is an auto-win feature. You have to pilot your character to -SOME- degree.

@SeCKSEgai

I agree. I've never argued contrarily.

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yamface wrote:

Paying for something that doesn't automatically let you win does not mean it's not p2w.

The chinese revive token is p2w as fuck. You don't "win" anything by just resurrecting in hc with this, but it's a pretty p2w item let's get real.

I've pvp'ed people in other games who bought gear that was superior to anything obtainable ingame, yet I still won once in a while.

Almost nothing that is p2w these days is an auto-win feature. You have to pilot your character to -SOME- degree.

That's true, but you get to broad a game becomes pay to win just for having a purchase price.

I don't pay attention to the chinese side because that's an entirely different market that is even influenced by the government.

But being able to pay to revive in HC falls completely under pay to win. When the whole premise of a game mode is one life, being able to pay to circumvent the intended conclusion is the kind of pay to win situation that draws ire, at least in other markets like the US.

Back when we had arcades, if you died you could almost always pay to continue. But there was no pay-to-win ideology then because it was understood and there was no long-term commitment or anything.

But, in a case like this, where the company sells an item to bypass the game's intended consequence - what's to stop said company from increasing the likelihood of those deaths to generate more revenue?

Now with tabs specifically, one could argue that the item bloat is subtle way of doing just that. Several of my tab purchases were specifically for the ability to stack what normally doesn't.

However, the simplest reason I don't see those tabs as pay to win is fact that nothing is actually gated behind a paywall. If I can find or trade for the fragments, I can fight Atziri, or Elder, Shaper or even Uber Elder. You don't have to pay a fee just to unlock Sirus or any content for that matter.

Sure, the extra space and specialized tabs can improve the experience. But I was also a D2 player and as many years as its been, you don't fully forget all that muling and micromanagement with one tiny stash. Given the hours I've put in, the money spent on convenience has been more than fair.

It's not some insidious attempt to milk its base for money. I came from MMOs that survived on gambling lootboxes, and even one of them already had a subscription fee to begin with. Now, if GGG started selling drop rate boosts for money - that would be the beginning of the end.

I think something that would kind of bridge the argument gap between Boem/SeCKSEgai and many others is this analogy.

The state of PoE is kind of like a Rubik's Cube.

If you give a RC to someone who's never used one before, but supply them with a guide how to solve it (PoE's tabs), they'll slowly learn, but won't immediately be as fast as a master at it.

The longer you do it, the better you get, and the less you NEED the book to progress quicker. In fact, play with it long enough, and the guide becomes nearly useless.

This is the argument I'm seeing. People with thousands of hours saying tabs are worthless, and new players saying they feel they're lost without them. Neither is wrong, it's all perspective.

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Redthorne82 wrote:

I think something that would kind of bridge the argument gap between Boem/SeCKSEgai and many others is this analogy.

The state of PoE is kind of like a Rubik's Cube.

If you give a RC to someone who's never used one before, but supply them with a guide how to solve it (PoE's tabs), they'll slowly learn, but won't immediately be as fast as a master at it.

The longer you do it, the better you get, and the less you NEED the book to progress quicker. In fact, play with it long enough, and the guide becomes nearly useless.

This is the argument I'm seeing. People with thousands of hours saying tabs are worthless, and new players saying they feel they're lost without them. Neither is wrong, it's all perspective.

yeah, it's all about the personal concept of winning everyone has.

you win when you solve a rubick's cube?
you win when you solve it without external help?
you win by solving it under 1 min?
you win when you solve it faster than everyone else?
you win when you write down tha mathematical model of the rubik's cube?

it's all personal

it is the same in PoE.
tabs gives an advantage in terms of organization, trading (that are all under the category of efficency) & mental sanity in the long term.

the basics tabs give you the chance to try the game.
purchasing the extra tabs lets you enjoy the game more.

it's not pay 2 win, i think it is more pay 2 enjoy.
a perfect system that gives you the chance to try the game, but you really enjoy it when you have this extra tabs.

i think we can call it a day after 66 pages...
no damn, 67...

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Sol_Starving wrote:

i think we can call it a day after 66 pages...
no damn, 67...

I never meant for this. I was kind of curious what people thought on the matter, and it exploded into a supernova of discussions all over the place.

I'd say I regret it, but it's been fun :D

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ajo wrote:

"

SeCKSEgai wrote:

However, the simplest reason I don't see those tabs as pay to win is fact that nothing is actually gated behind a paywall. If I can find or trade for the fragments, I can fight Atziri, or Elder, Shaper or even Uber Elder. You don't have to pay a fee just to unlock Sirus or any content for that matter.

By your argument, GGG could then sell XP boosters and it would not be pay-to-win.

Not quite - just because its not mentioned doesn't mean it qualifies or not.

XP boosters naturally lean on the pay to win side but it really depends on the game. In a game like Swtor where they sell tokens for instant max level, it's not so much winning as sheer convenience for alting. I had one main, but when I was active there I still rotated through at least 10 characters depending on roles needed. A shit player can make even the easiest ops painful so filling in roles, even the ones I hated was common for the core folk. I still would let people die for pulling too much threat tho, since damage was my usual and threat management second nature.

In PoE where at least a small portion of the base races to 100 every few months, then that would clearly be pay to win and thus why you are unlikely to see those sold at least in the western markets.

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ajo wrote:

"

SeCKSEgai wrote:

XP boosters naturally lean on the pay to win side

So does other conveniences and other time savers.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

In PoE where at least a small portion of the base races to 100 every few months, then that would clearly be pay to win and thus why you are unlikely to see those sold at least in the western markets.

So selling boosters and currency for real money would be okay and not pay-to-win after one player reaches level 100 in league?

See, that's the problem with your stances. When I think pay to win, I think is a company forcing a pay to win situation in this game? If so, I quit the game because it's relying on malicious practices to extract funding from the playerbase and I won't be a part of that player base.

When you think pay to win, you ask is it something I need to pay for? You aren't looking at broader implications. Anything with a cost that may improve your experience falls under pay to win for you.

You can literally do all the content without ever making a purchase, why is it unreasonable for them to offer additional storage for a minor free, especially when you get them EVERY league? It's not like you have to buy tabs each league, or for every mode. They have to generate revenue somewhere, and players like me are VERY unlikely to pay extra just for virtual cosmetics. I'll trade in game used currency or tokens or whatever, but paying for pretty is just something I avoid.