Can we stop pretending that Path of Exile is free to play?

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ajo wrote:

Again, so selling boosters and currency for real money would be okay and not pay-to-win after one player reaches level 100 in league?

How exactly does invalidating the lvl 100 achievement for the entire player-base serve your argument?

Or do you honestly not understand that reaching lvl 100 is a win condition for many players beyond the ladder event?

Also for reference,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re6CgQzCeWc
^thats efficient and the standard to compare against when considering "being efficient".
Because being efficient and "winning" in that sense means competing with the 1%.

I suggest most people watch some actual efficient players so they can shake of this notion that their play is efficient all together and simply enjoy the game for what it offers them.

This weird illusion that your "losing out" against others when losing a couple minutes here and there when actual people are hours ahead of you in progression is infantile.
People are most likely doing t1 maps when most of the playerbase is finishing act3 or 4 on normal.

Peace,

-Boem-

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ajo wrote:

Again, so selling boosters and currency for real money would be okay and not pay-to-win after one player reaches level 100 in league?

It wouldn't bother me much because I've never enjoyed the game to a point where I'd push for 100. BUT, I also recognize that to do so would draw the ire of the community.

I brought up SWTOR before as an example (the whole alts and instant max level stuff). The dynamic of an MMO is different than that of an ARPG. Gearing up is mostly a time sink that must be done while paying a subscription in order to even access the group content to be able to earn tokens required for said gear (as far as SWTOR goes). I stopped playing because I no longer felt the sub was worth it and the restrictions on a FTP account were too extreme. Almost all my earned credits were locked out and can't be spent without subbing again, not to mention any of the content really worth doing is blocked too.

Now, let's take a game where boosts weren't/aren't an issue, League of Legends. It doesn't matter what you spend on cosmetics or boosts there, it's not gonna elevate you from iron to challenger.

Excluding side transactions out of game where you pay a highly rated player to carry you (which is also illegal in their ToS), you can't rise through the ranks by buying your way up. It doesn't matter if an account is level 5 or 300, the ability of the individual player is what decides whether someone can compete at the professional level of challenger or all the way at the new bottom they had to add in Iron.

But with that said, League's growth is largely thanks to its F2P system. That's not to disregard its embrace of esports or its constant revisions (whether you like the changes or not). It's just that its been one of the most fair since F2P became a thing. Don't want to spend money on a new champ? Unlock it through extensive play instead. They've even made it possible to access cosmetics that once were strictly behind a paywall.

The point still is that you've got to look at the bigger picture when you choose to demonize a game as Pay to Win. If you feel so strongly that a game is pay to win, you shouldn't be playing it.

Wolcen is pay to play XD i win this thread now please stfu

F2P, P2P, P2W. None of that matters, the fact is we shouldnt be paying for stash tabs in 2020. The game has been a huge success. Chris wilson and GGG killed the diablo franchise off and are filthy stinkin rich. At this point they are just being greedy

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Sniper_X wrote:

F2P, P2P, P2W. None of that matters, the fact is we shouldnt be paying for stash tabs in 2020. The game has been a huge success. Chris wilson and GGG killed the diablo franchise off and are filthy stinkin rich. At this point they are just being greedy

This argument makes no sense to me.

It's like saying, anyone or any company that has earned a good chunk of money has to take a big cut in income now or they are being greedy!

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

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ajo wrote:

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

XP boosters naturally lean on the pay to win side

So does other conveniences and other time savers.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

In PoE where at least a small portion of the base races to 100 every few months, then that would clearly be pay to win and thus why you are unlikely to see those sold at least in the western markets.

So selling boosters and currency for real money would be okay and not pay-to-win after one player reaches level 100 in league?

See, that's the problem with your stances. When I think pay to win, I think is a company forcing a pay to win situation in this game? If so, I quit the game because it's relying on malicious practices to extract funding from the playerbase and I won't be a part of that player base.

When you think pay to win, you ask is it something I need to pay for? You aren't looking at broader implications. Anything with a cost that may improve your experience falls under pay to win for you.

You can literally do all the content without ever making a purchase, why is it unreasonable for them to offer additional storage for a minor free, especially when you get them EVERY league? It's not like you have to buy tabs each league, or for every mode. They have to generate revenue somewhere, and players like me are VERY unlikely to pay extra just for virtual cosmetics. I'll trade in game used currency or tokens or whatever, but paying for pretty is just something I avoid.

There are very, very few games that meet that criteria of pay 2 win. Most p2w games are convenience-based. As I've said before, even mobile games dont force you to spend money to enjoy the game. Most of the time, you can do all the content in the game with starter champs, farmable heroes, whatever. You can do every dungeon in Summoners War with completely f2p units. But that game is p2w.

There are very few games I can think of that blatantly force you to spend money to enjoy the game. Almost all of them fall into various categories of efficiency/luxury/convenience/advantages, and all those fall under the pay 2 win umbrella term. Some are more egregious than others, but thats up to debate.

Also, most games allow you to earn said things, too, just from playing. Thats probably the biggest knock I have against pages. You have no way of actually earning them. Especially the most impactful of all, premium tabs. I mean hell, even in Summoners War, I can earn skins, stash, rolls, etc. And I'd say that game is way more p2w than PoE. Warframe you can play and earn everything. League you can play and earn skins, champs, etc. PoE's monetary system was amazing 5+ years ago, but it sorta pales in comparison to a lot of games now. A lot of stuff is hidden behind 100% paywalls, and honestly, thats pretty rare nowadays.

i think there was another thread about PoE being p2w that got over 100 pages xd why people don't stfu? GGG doesn't care how P2W the game is and they also don't care about some forum randoms defending them GGG won't change their business model since it's most likely working well for them end of thread now bye

it's free to play, pay to enjoy. simple as that.

at the end of the day, it's the most f2p arpg out there at the moment.
maybe the whiners will have grounds to stand on someday if an actual arpg comes out with actual f2p ; but until then, suck it up :)

tbf a single quad tab can be enough for 15k+ hours of gameplay. it's pretty much f2p at this point ; if you divide the price of a quad tab by 15000 hours ; you realize its very fkn cheap, almost free.

something tells me some ppl won't be happy until the game pays them to play ;) heh

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teksuoPOE wrote:

it's free to play, pay to enjoy. simple as that.

at the end of the day, it's the most f2p arpg out there at the moment.
maybe the whiners will have grounds to stand on someday if an actual arpg comes out with actual f2p ; but until then, suck it up :)

tbf a single quad tab can be enough for 15k+ hours of gameplay. it's pretty much f2p at this point ; if you divide the price of a quad tab by 15000 hours ; you realize its very fkn cheap, almost free.

something tells me some ppl won't be happy until the game pays them to play ;) heh

What people won't be happy? Maybe you mean someone like this overly entitled fellow?

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Sniper_X wrote:

F2P, P2P, P2W. None of that matters, the fact is we shouldnt be paying for stash tabs in 2020. The game has been a huge success. Chris wilson and GGG killed the diablo franchise off and are filthy stinkin rich. At this point they are just being greedy

Why shouldn't he have to pay for stash tabs in 2020? Do stash tabs become free in 2020 because his shit stopped stinking in 2020?

Now to be fair, I haven't paid for any stash tabs in 2020. That's because I paid for them previously and I'm still using them in 2020. LOL

I guess we can expect these folks in 2021 to say, "Chris Wilson and GGG are stinking rich. It's 2021, they should be paying me to play PoE but they are just being greedy."

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CAPSLOCK_ON wrote:

i think there was another thread about PoE being p2w that got over 100 pages xd why people don't stfu? GGG doesn't care how P2W the game is and they also don't care about some forum randoms defending them GGG won't change their business model since it's most likely working well for them end of thread now bye

As for the bold above...

They'll care when their long time players leave. They'll care when new player retention dies. They'll care when they can't afford to get paid.

If this is a conversation that spans HUNDREDS of pages at times, then it's one worth having. There's obviously a lot of strong feelings on both sides of the argument, and even if, by some perfect logic, we can PROVE that it's not pay-to-win, the fact that enough people feel like it is and are tired of it will still hurt the company.

Not saying the customer is always right, but the customer ALWAYS determines the fate of a company.