Catalysts used on essence worm make it reserve more mana.

"

Jatin_GGG wrote:

"

razowiec2 wrote:

As the title says, after few catalysty my essence worm now reserves 42% more mana up from 40% (it's a nerf).

Thanks for your report, this is intended as this is how Catalysts work.

Let's use 2 examples:
- "100% Reduced mana reserved"
- "100% Increased mana reserved"

With 20% Quality using Fertile Catalyst, this will modify the above values by 1.2x.

Results:
- "100% Reduced mana reserved" becomes "120% Reduced mana reserved"
- "100% Increased mana reserved" becomes "120% Increased mana reserved"

Getting negative power from quality items seems like a poor design choice.

"

Zentaki wrote:

"

Jatin_GGG wrote:

"

razowiec2 wrote:

As the title says, after few catalysty my essence worm now reserves 42% more mana up from 40% (it's a nerf).

Thanks for your report, this is intended as this is how Catalysts work.

Let's use 2 examples:
- "100% Reduced mana reserved"
- "100% Increased mana reserved"

With 20% Quality using Fertile Catalyst, this will modify the above values by 1.2x.

Results:
- "100% Reduced mana reserved" becomes "120% Reduced mana reserved"
- "100% Increased mana reserved" becomes "120% Increased mana reserved"

Getting negative power from quality items seems like a poor design choice.

Poor design choice? This league? No way!

It's not 'negative' or 'positive'. The catalyst is just amplifying the items' stats. That's it.

Our *perspective* that 'Increased mana reservation' is an unattractive stat is irrelevant. The math is just Stat*Multiplier. Math doesn't care (or have any ability to evaluate) if Stat is considered attractive.

"

Jatin_GGG wrote:

"

razowiec2 wrote:

As the title says, after few catalysty my essence worm now reserves 42% more mana up from 40% (it's a nerf).

Thanks for your report, this is intended as this is how Catalysts work.

Let's use 2 examples:
- "100% Reduced mana reserved"
- "100% Increased mana reserved"

With 20% Quality using Fertile Catalyst, this will modify the above values by 1.2x.

Results:
- "100% Reduced mana reserved" becomes "120% Reduced mana reserved"
- "100% Increased mana reserved" becomes "120% Increased mana reserved"

Thank you for your reply. I understand how it works and that's the reason why I corrected myself that it cannot be called a bug. But wasn't the purpose of catalysts to make your build stronger?

"

Jatin_GGG wrote:

"

razowiec2 wrote:

As the title says, after few catalysty my essence worm now reserves 42% more mana up from 40% (it's a nerf).

Thanks for your report, this is intended as this is how Catalysts work.

Let's use 2 examples:
- "100% Reduced mana reserved"
- "100% Increased mana reserved"

With 20% Quality using Fertile Catalyst, this will modify the above values by 1.2x.

Results:
- "100% Reduced mana reserved" becomes "120% Reduced mana reserved"
- "100% Increased mana reserved" becomes "120% Increased mana reserved"

These catalysts don't work on Mana reservation like For Herald of Agony in the Nostalgia ring. There is no indication as to which is a mana mod and which isn't. You should ask for this to be edited because based on the description and your reply here, fertile catalysts should improve my reduced mana reserved on the Herald of Agony/Ash/Ice in Circle of Nostalgia/Regret etc.

"

Jatin_GGG wrote:

"

razowiec2 wrote:

As the title says, after few catalysty my essence worm now reserves 42% more mana up from 40% (it's a nerf).

Thanks for your report, this is intended as this is how Catalysts work.

Let's use 2 examples:
- "100% Reduced mana reserved"
- "100% Increased mana reserved"

With 20% Quality using Fertile Catalyst, this will modify the above values by 1.2x.

Results:
- "100% Reduced mana reserved" becomes "120% Reduced mana reserved"
- "100% Increased mana reserved" becomes "120% Increased mana reserved"

i Tried fertile Catalyst On my circle of Nostalgia but my reduced mana was unchanged and it just effected on implicit on ring for increased mana and reduced maan cost skill(i want my catalyst back)

"

SirGuySW wrote:

It's not 'negative' or 'positive'. The catalyst is just amplifying the items' stats. That's it.

Our *perspective* that 'Increased mana reservation' is an unattractive stat is irrelevant. The math is just Stat*Multiplier. Math doesn't care (or have any ability to evaluate) if Stat is considered attractive.

Negative power is a design term. Using Quality items on another item is expected to give you positive power. Quality items aren't keystones where there's a trade off. While the outcome is technically correct, the design is flawed.

"

Zentaki wrote:

Negative power is a design term. Using Quality items on another item is expected to give you positive power. Quality items aren't keystones where there's a trade off. While the outcome is technically correct, the design is flawed.

Using quality items are expected to increase the stats of the item, regardless of what they are. Again, the terms 'positive' and 'negative' are irrelevant here due to them being entirely at the whims of our individual perspectives.

Stripping this down to pure math the 'increased mana reservation' *is* positive. It 'increases' the stat it affects (mana reservation cost). It's our perspective that flips that around to say, 'oh, this is a bad thing, that makes it negative'. The stat itself is *not* negative, only our perception of it.

Exploring perspective in another way: If someone plays a build that gains advantage from having higher mana reservation cost 'increased mana reservation' might be viewed as an attractive or 'positive' stat. Whereas if someone plays a build where they need to keep their life as low as possible a stat like 'increased maximum life' might be viewed as an unattractive or 'negative' stat.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

"

SirGuySW wrote:

"

Zentaki wrote:

Negative power is a design term. Using Quality items on another item is expected to give you positive power. Quality items aren't keystones where there's a trade off. While the outcome is technically correct, the design is flawed.

Using quality items are expected to increase the stats of the item, regardless of what they are. Again, the terms 'positive' and 'negative' are irrelevant here due to them being entirely at the whims of our individual perspectives.

Stripping this down to pure math the 'increased mana reservation' *is* positive. It 'increases' the stat it affects (mana reservation cost). It's our perspective that flips that around to say, 'oh, this is a bad thing, that makes it negative'. The stat itself is *not* negative, only our perception of it.

Exploring perspective in another way: If someone plays a build that gains advantage from having higher mana reservation cost 'increased mana reservation' might be viewed as an attractive or 'positive' stat. Whereas if someone plays a build where they need to keep their life as low as possible a stat like 'increased maximum life' might be viewed as an unattractive or 'negative' stat.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Show me one efficient build taking advantage of essence worm "improved" by catalysts. If there's at least one then that would be the first valid argument in this topic that catalysts used on EW can serve their purpose.

Just one build.

"

razowiec2 wrote:

Show me one efficient build taking advantage of essence worm "improved" by catalysts.

Perspective again. :|

I don't pretend to be any sort of buildsmith but there are mechanics like Guardian's Radiant Faith that provide significant benefit for reserved mana. Maybe a build using a mechanic like that could use a few extra % mana reserved but has no further slots for skills or is already using all the flat cost skills.

One of the most amazing things about PoE is the interactions between mechanics. Players find bizarre interactions between the mechanics, enabling them to create some very interesting (and efficient) builds. GGG created a whole webisode series (w/e it's called) where they featured these neat builds: Build of the Week Episodes - Youtube. Just because you (or even if everyone) is unaware of an 'efficient' way to interact with a mechanic doesn't mean it doesn't exist or wont be introduced in a future patch.

If you're dead set on this being a bug there are other items to add to the list. Applying quality currency to these items also results in a typically undesirable outcome:

• Forbidden Taste - Increases the length of the degen without providing any increased HP recovery.
• Divination Distillate - Increases the HP/MP recovery rate which can make it more difficult to sustain the Unique effects of the flask buff (buff is removed at full HP/MP).
• Lavianga's Spirit - Increases the mana recovered which can make it more difficult to sustain the Unique effects of the flask buff (buff is removed at full MP).
• Zerphi's Last Breath - Increases the mana recovered which can make it more difficult to sustain the Unique effects of the flask buff (buff is removed at full MP).

Then of course there's the 'unwanted life' case I hinted at in my previous post. This can be observed with a pure ES RF/Blood Rage build. Increasing maximum life causes increased degen but often doesn't contribute to the EHP regen, lowering overall EHP recovery. Someone playing such a build might avoid using quality currency to improve their items if it means increasing their total HP, taking them closer to being unable to sustain their skill(s).

Further reading: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/9o7rtx/zerphis_last_breath_how_does_quality_effect_it/
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/736oyc/is_there_any_downside_to_improving_the_quality_of/