Reminder: Resolute Technique still provides minimal value over non-RT builds ever since Acc buff.

Bah, thinking that "further nerfing Crit Multi" will do anything with TencentGGG not bothering to even think about a semblance of balance in PoE, and have the power creep revert said "nerf" in a matter of 1-2 patches is the best "path"...

The problems lie deep in having "free damage" with an asinine ease of access, and an outright "damage capping" easy to pick option, which can't be scaled above a certain threshold.

Any sane developers would have address this discrepancy a long, long time ago, but as we can continue to experience TencentGGG being epically stubborn on various aspects, sadly we have to still deal with anyone picking a damn lackluster "UBER HARD MODE ON" dial flipped on START, with no further mention of the "EASY MODE" one that Crit damage scaling became.

Crit can be "HUGE MOAR BIG etc. etc. NUMBERS", as long as those numbers require a damn investment. That used to be addressed with a limited amount of Crit chance and Accuracy.

RT used to be "so good", mainly because Accuracy and Crit chance were, you know, hard to get for attack based builds.

At this point, they can simply remove Accuracy as a mechanic, as it serves no purpose - getting to 100% chance to hit is so easy, that it simply deletes the mechanic - and that is actually due to TencentGGG having Accuracy locked to chance to hit, instead of a damn chance to crit...

Just imagine, you could have Accuracy + Chance to crit rolled into 1 stat, which makes sure you will have to actually invest if you want to Crit, and still keep the damn attacks properly hitting enemies with at least a "decent investment"...

That ship has sailed unfortunately, so all we can actually hope these days, is to have TencentGGG buff the minimal damage threshold, symbolized by RT and no crit investment + moderate accuracy builds.

Their main problem is how to make it balanced regarding slow as snails powerful blows AND fast as F@CK "death via a million cuts" builds at the same time...

RT having a small buff in taking into account only the MAXIMUM damage of an attack falls perfectly in line with "FORFEITING CRIT TO DO SO".

Adding further bonuses to survivability via RT and/or a selection of nodes behind it, makes sense, as you can always take an RT build as a base "worst case scenario" regarding damage output, and be sure that it will ALWAYS have to endure the longest fights.

It's not like RT isn't a damn Vaal corruption outcome, which would always offer a proper ALTERNATIVE to Crit.

Sure, we could argue that non-RT, non-Crit attack builds are lacking damage scaling options with EO being mandatory, I would also like a couple of keystones that would entice this niche more usage - Crimson Dance could simply have a further notable that doubles the Crit chance while permanently locking you to the base 150% multi etc.

TencentGGG have the possibilities, it's simply a matter of choosing to address this fiasco, because if they don't, it will further lead to having it increase the shallowness of the game...

"

sidtherat wrote:

problem is - IT IS part of the equation. even if you cut the damage, game right now is 'cause something on crit'. all new mods are 'on crit'. tailwind on crit, extra damage on crit, trigger on crit, get this or that on crit.

game assumes you go crit. forgeting that and stopping 2/3 way with 100% accuracy but no crit investment is just stupid. damage or no damage.

its not part of that equation, and investing in accuracy is not 2/3 of the way to being properly crit, its like 1/10 of ur investment into crit.

i gave an example of a ngamahamawhateveritis flame ranger earlier. youre not gonna go crit on that. are you gonna go res tech? well it would absolutely suck if accuracy was such a badly implemented mechanic that it wasnt even worth attempting to use it and you were forced to travel to the other side of the tree for daring to not play a crit build, that would suck.

its like mana regen vs mana leech on casters, everyone just leeched, yes it was easier get one source of leech bam, done, idiotic. but... try and go mana regen before the buffs, u get flat mana + regen on both rings, mana regen on amulet, take literally every mana notable in the top half of the tree and then run clarity... and you still cant fuel ur fucking 6 link skill, it was bullshit. dysfunctional mechanic. accuracy wasnt quite that bad but it was pretty bad. acc should be a minor investment and anyone who wants to actually hit things should be able to hit things with a small investment of 2 or 3 suffxies and the acc from their tree nodes, its doing its job as a factor in your build at that sort of pressure level.

if the crit problem is solved, itll only be worth the effort it will take to solve it if what we have instead is actually good and healthy, everyone going rt is not that at all.




look heres the deal, so we solve it by buffing RT, how does that look?

you give Rt "30% more attack damage". Ok, now every non crit attacker HAS to get that one node, it makes a shit show of diversity and trees, its just awful. 30% more damage is almost like a gem slot, its huge, you cannot skip that. But we solved the everyone going crit problem right? No, crit builds are doing like 300% more damage than RT when its all summed up.

so at 30% weve already taken a massive shit on the game, it stinks and weve solved nothing. What are we gonna do? go for the full "300% more attack damage" bonus that would be needed to solve this from buffing RT?

it just doesnt work, the gap is too insane. they simply have to nerf crit and maybe introduce mechanics that dont work with crit or reduce crit. just make the investment more of a nightmare, cut base multi down to 130% like mobs have, absolutely gut crit multi from the tree, have it in little 5% here, maybe a 10% over there for a really spicy node.

why can you impale on a crit? make it so you cant impale on a crit and make the impale gem state that supported attacks cannot deal critical strikes so that your base crit doesnt fk with ur impales. then put more impale stuff across the bottom of the tree so its not such a forced investment where everyones tree starts looking the same because they have to take the couple of impale nodes in very specific places.

"

sidtherat wrote:

then the MOST IDIOTIC item out there - diamond flask and you wonder why there are still non-crit characters in the game at all

ya for sure, what were they thinking? that flask is the worst, it just needs to go or be completely redesigned. make it a crit multi flask to get back like 1/5 of the crit multi that uve just stripped from crit builds.

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

Bah, thinking that "further nerfing Crit Multi" will do anything with TencentGGG not bothering to even think about a semblance of balance in PoE, and have the power creep revert said "nerf" in a matter of 1-2 patches is the best "path"...

well this isnt about poe in general, as long as that power creep isnt power creep that requires crit then the crit problem can be solved outside of the larger power creep problem. they solved the RT problem, they have nerfed crit before and can nerf it again, they got poe 4.0 coming where a lot of massive changes can happen.

the power can still be a problem yet the game can still be in a better place thanks to the balance of that power being shifted away from crit. solving the overall power issue is needed too, for sure man, but thats a whole other battle right there.

"

Adding further bonuses to survivability via RT and/or a selection of nodes behind it, makes sense

it doesnt make sense to me at all tbh. i think like adding more damage to the node you wont fix anything by doing it, and you will make things worse, youll get the down side of forcing rt on people not going crit and not going crit will still be absolute garbage.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

Spoiler

"

sidtherat wrote:

problem is - IT IS part of the equation. even if you cut the damage, game right now is 'cause something on crit'. all new mods are 'on crit'. tailwind on crit, extra damage on crit, trigger on crit, get this or that on crit.

game assumes you go crit. forgeting that and stopping 2/3 way with 100% accuracy but no crit investment is just stupid. damage or no damage.

its not part of that equation, and investing in accuracy is not 2/3 of the way to being properly crit, its like 1/10 of ur investment into crit.

i gave an example of a ngamahamawhateveritis flame ranger earlier. youre not gonna go crit on that. are you gonna go res tech? well it would absolutely suck if accuracy was such a badly implemented mechanic that it wasnt even worth attempting to use it and you were forced to travel to the other side of the tree for daring to not play a crit build, that would suck.

its like mana regen vs mana leech on casters, everyone just leeched, yes it was easier get one source of leech bam, done, idiotic. but... try and go mana regen before the buffs, u get flat mana + regen on both rings, mana regen on amulet, take literally every mana notable in the top half of the tree and then run clarity... and you still cant fuel ur fucking 6 link skill, it was bullshit. dysfunctional mechanic. accuracy wasnt quite that bad but it was pretty bad. acc should be a minor investment and anyone who wants to actually hit things should be able to hit things with a small investment of 2 or 3 suffxies and the acc from their tree nodes, its doing its job as a factor in your build at that sort of pressure level.

if the crit problem is solved, itll only be worth the effort it will take to solve it if what we have instead is actually good and healthy, everyone going rt is not that at all.




look heres the deal, so we solve it by buffing RT, how does that look?

you give Rt "30% more attack damage". Ok, now every non crit attacker HAS to get that one node, it makes a shit show of diversity and trees, its just awful. 30% more damage is almost like a gem slot, its huge, you cannot skip that. But we solved the everyone going crit problem right? No, crit builds are doing like 300% more damage than RT when its all summed up.

so at 30% weve already taken a massive shit on the game, it stinks and weve solved nothing. What are we gonna do? go for the full "300% more attack damage" bonus that would be needed to solve this from buffing RT?

it just doesnt work, the gap is too insane. they simply have to nerf crit and maybe introduce mechanics that dont work with crit or reduce crit. just make the investment more of a nightmare, cut base multi down to 130% like mobs have, absolutely gut crit multi from the tree, have it in little 5% here, maybe a 10% over there for a really spicy node.

why can you impale on a crit? make it so you cant impale on a crit and make the impale gem state that supported attacks cannot deal critical strikes so that your base crit doesnt fk with ur impales. then put more impale stuff across the bottom of the tree so its not such a forced investment where everyones tree starts looking the same because they have to take the couple of impale nodes in very specific places.

"

sidtherat wrote:

then the MOST IDIOTIC item out there - diamond flask and you wonder why there are still non-crit characters in the game at all

ya for sure, what were they thinking? that flask is the worst, it just needs to go or be completely redesigned. make it a crit multi flask to get back like 1/5 of the crit multi that uve just stripped from crit builds.

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

Bah, thinking that "further nerfing Crit Multi" will do anything with TencentGGG not bothering to even think about a semblance of balance in PoE, and have the power creep revert said "nerf" in a matter of 1-2 patches is the best "path"...

well this isnt about poe in general, as long as that power creep isnt power creep that requires crit then the crit problem can be solved outside of the larger power creep problem. they solved the RT problem, they have nerfed crit before and can nerf it again, they got poe 4.0 coming where a lot of massive changes can happen.

the power can still be a problem yet the game can still be in a better place thanks to the balance of that power being shifted away from crit. solving the overall power issue is needed too, for sure man, but thats a whole other battle right there.

"

Adding further bonuses to survivability via RT and/or a selection of nodes behind it, makes sense

it doesnt make sense to me at all tbh. i think like adding more damage to the node you wont fix anything by doing it, and you will make things worse, youll get the down side of forcing rt on people not going crit and not going crit will still be absolute garbage.

We all know TencentGGG's track record regarding doing "proper nerfs/buffs", heck, take a long look at their "touted melee rework" and say with a straight face you feel confident they will PROPERLY address Crit...

As much as I would want you to be right, I still think a decent boost like making RT to only account for maximum damage (even if lightning based max damage needs a small nerf then) would be a decent first step into bringing RT into relevance - mind you, I do have a higher than average gear on my main char, which is decently built, but the damn DPS walls are getting too tiring, so anything that will help it reach further is welcomed...

As I said RT is "ONLY MANDATORY", as the non-RT non-Crit multi lacks further incentives to "BE A THING", and that is up to TencentGGG to explore and improve, only having EO as an incentive simply lets too many playstyles down.

You can always get RT as a Vaal corruption outcome on the damn weapons, and that should be a perfectly "viable solution" for traders, for SSFs too even, albeit in a lot smaller cases, as that would actually encourage "CHOICE" in PoE...

I still hope that RT, non-RT non-Crit and Crit based builds will have their place, but the divide between the current bottom feeder - RT - and Crit, should be PERMANENTLY reduced in a sane way, with a small damage boost, while simplifying damage calculations will be BENEFICIAL, but sure, more nerfs to Crit, even by tackling Crit chance to Accuracy in a better way would do wonders...

I know from my own experience - I still play my main dual wielding RT char versus all the damn content daily - that in the current status, fights got noticeably longer for RT characters that don't scale DoTs, or rely on various side effects, so RT - which has CONSISTENCY as a basis - should also get some survivability buffs, because IT NEEDS IT - having to enjoy 12-15 min fights where you pay close attention, feels more "FUN", but watching half your sustain being damage capped (leech actually works decently if we take RT interaction as a baseline, until you hit the wrong mods on maps), is a further slap on those that do play PoE with "UBER HARD MODE ON"...

You can disregard too much content by going damage scaling, and that's why @sidtherat always calls RT a "noob trap", while I simply say it's a damn hidden difficulty slider...

Hopefully, things will change for the best when 4.0 hits...

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

We all know TencentGGG's track record regarding doing "proper nerfs/buffs", heck, take a long look at their "touted melee rework" and say with a straight face you feel confident they will PROPERLY address Crit...

if you dont feel like theres any hope of them changing things then why are you posting in feedback?

"

As I said RT is "ONLY MANDATORY", as the non-RT non-Crit multi lacks further incentives to "BE A THING"

it doesnt lack incentives, if you dont want your tree to go anywhere near RT then you can just not take it and get a couple of accuracy stats on gear, then make the build the way you want to make the build in the areas of the tree you want to be in. its perfectly fine, the only problem with it is the same problem RT has, the fact that your not a fully signed up crit build so youre doing 1/4 of the damage.

on one hand people say accuracy is really trivial to get and thats really bad because it makes crit really easy to do, and then turn around and say getting accuracy instead of RT is a really big investment that youre wasting so theres no incentive to do it... its not a big investment, its literally a couple of suffixes. If youre a marauder with a mace who stays in the strength zone it makes total sense to be RT because youve got no dex and ur mace nodes dont rly come with acc, if you are a duelist with a sword why would you ever need to take RT? youve got a lot of dex, youve got acc on your sword, acc on a ton of your nodes, youre most of the way there without investing anything, if youre not pathing directly past RT theres no reason to go there and get it.

say RT takes you 5 nodes to get, thats what you essentially save if you dont have to go to that part of the tree, what can you get with those 5 nodes? now weigh that against 2 or 3 gear suffixes, you can probably take an entire damage wheel with 45% damage + 15% attack speed. what are you gonna get on your 2 ring suffixes instead? two 7% attack speed mods?

Accuracy.. for me it means 3300 effective. You can easily get that with mace marauder. While you dont get acc from dex you get quite a lot good %acc nodes and few hybrid acc/crit. Precision is cheap and fits nicely into melee builds.

It doesnt take much to get there and it is the cheapest damage you can get. 45% damage when you already have 450% means nothing.

And seriously. At this point you are at 10% crit already without doing anything. There is no reason to go non-crit. And getting crit chance is as cheap as ever.

Ngamahu cyclone? EO or crit. Non-crit makes no sense. Even for axes (axa non crit weapons) there are just so many crit sources: attack crit chest, crit support, inc crit from golem/aura, crit from ass mark and power charges. What is harder to get is getting crit multi above 400. But you are already at 45% crit before diamond flask.

Why would anyone ever consider non crit? The numbers nowadays simply dont add up. It makes no sense.

RT is good for herald of agony or .. failed melee junk builds?


Non crit was always the 'suck' option and it died the day ascendancies were given crit and/or acx for free. Champion, jugg, recently zerker.

POE joined the 'trifecta' itemization games: attack speed, crit chance and crit damage. Diablo3 had it. Poe has it. No other stats matter famage wise (sure, indigons etc exist. But crit indigon is strictpy superior to non crit one..)

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

Spoiler

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

We all know TencentGGG's track record regarding doing "proper nerfs/buffs", heck, take a long look at their "touted melee rework" and say with a straight face you feel confident they will PROPERLY address Crit...

if you dont feel like theres any hope of them changing things then why are you posting in feedback?

"

As I said RT is "ONLY MANDATORY", as the non-RT non-Crit multi lacks further incentives to "BE A THING"

it doesnt lack incentives, if you dont want your tree to go anywhere near RT then you can just not take it and get a couple of accuracy stats on gear, then make the build the way you want to make the build in the areas of the tree you want to be in. its perfectly fine, the only problem with it is the same problem RT has, the fact that your not a fully signed up crit build so youre doing 1/4 of the damage.

on one hand people say accuracy is really trivial to get and thats really bad because it makes crit really easy to do, and then turn around and say getting accuracy instead of RT is a really big investment that youre wasting so theres no incentive to do it... its not a big investment, its literally a couple of suffixes. If youre a marauder with a mace who stays in the strength zone it makes total sense to be RT because youve got no dex and ur mace nodes dont rly come with acc, if you are a duelist with a sword why would you ever need to take RT? youve got a lot of dex, youve got acc on your sword, acc on a ton of your nodes, youre most of the way there without investing anything, if youre not pathing directly past RT theres no reason to go there and get it.

say RT takes you 5 nodes to get, thats what you essentially save if you dont have to go to that part of the tree, what can you get with those 5 nodes? now weigh that against 2 or 3 gear suffixes, you can probably take an entire damage wheel with 45% damage + 15% attack speed. what are you gonna get on your 2 ring suffixes instead? two 7% attack speed mods?

Don't you know hope dies last?

Of course TencentGGG are still changing things, but for some reasons, they tend to miss all the damn marks lately, and accentuate more and more unresolved problems... 4.0 can't come soon enough...

RT might take 40 nodes to get - having the RT as a Vaal corruption is then "build enabling", right? You don't have to path to it, you can easily take it and disregard all the investments regarding accuracy, Crit chance and multi while supposedly having enough damage to complete ALL GAME CONTENT - with RT, damage scaling is such a PITA, not to mention the damage scaling for non-RT non Crit - that has no purpose whatsoever, even EO requires you to Crit...

Talking about Accuracy becoming too easy to get, and serving only the purpose of HITTING the enemy, instead of scaling your Crit chance as it should have been from the start, it doesn't provide ANY DAMN INCENTIVE regarding NOT GOING CRIT AT THE SAME TIME, with only 1 sole exception - Elemental Overload.

I know you can easily get to 5-6K accuracy these days, with an investment that is what, half of what it took a couple patches ago, the main problem is that Crit chance also became abundant, and that is why all the others highlight TencentGGG's mistake - they have made Crit a requirement to "git gud" all over again...

Not to mention that anyone sane wouldn't have let Crit multi surpass like 3 x the base damage (with RT as the base, for example), but hey, we also have other ways to scale damage to asinine levels in PoE, because TencentGGG didn't properly resolved the "diminishing returns of further damage investments" conundrum...

PoE became an incomplete game reliant on too many "conundrums", so only a massive rework like the one we hope to see when 4.0 hits, might make the game more enjoyable!!!



Nicely explained, now if only TencentGGG devs would get it too...

PS: I prefer to consider RT builds as playing with "UBER HARD MODE ON" in PoE, not to mention the fact that current HP buffs shown the purpose of most of the previous power creep... And it's so epic to be damage capped and win vs the end game content, that RT should actually be a damn MANDATORY requirement for certain HC SSF "very difficult" private leagues (and no cheating via other means to damage scale like DoTs)...

Seriously.

Even if crit gave NO EXTRA DAMAGE going non crit would be STUPID.

There are just too many 'on crit' effects that missing out on them means your character is garbage. Tailwind and ellusive on crit while f.. absurd are one of so many.

Crit giving extra damage on top of all these means that crit is mandatory. Simple as that.

I have RT in my Totem Warchief build. Needs many suffixes, getting accuracy is expensive, routing for Ele Overload is too many points. RT fixes itemization issues.

But that's probably the only build I've think of past 2 years that might actually benefit from RT.

Guess what, im using RT, having around 100ex gear, im having an average of 1,2m DPS. Thats right 100ex gear. Theoreticly my build max dps should cap at 2,5m, but gear cost would be become around 3-5 mirrors. While crit builds are maxing around 5-10m dps with 100ex gear or less and having almost same survivability. So thats around 5 to 10 times better to use crit than RT. And try doing Pure Chayula with 6x hp, very fun fight, takes around 5-10 minutes, constantly moving carefully and not trying to rip in 2 secs if you move your eyes from boss. And why im not playing crit, in future my next melee char will be crit for sure, cause i really felt huge difference this league.

"

sidtherat wrote:

Accuracy.. for me it means 3300 effective. You can easily get that with mace marauder. While you dont get acc from dex you get quite a lot good %acc nodes and few hybrid acc/crit. Precision is cheap and fits nicely into melee builds.

only if youre going for the crit nodes, were talking about a non crit build, the mace nodes ur taking on a non crit mace build dont really have accuracy, you actually have to go out of your way to get it and then it becomes pointless because as a mace build ur already right on top of RT.



believe it or not im aware you can make a mace build that uses accuracy rather than RT. but were talking about a non crit build, were taking that as a given in order to explore the options within that build space and RTs place in them.

"

sidtherat wrote:

Ngamahu cyclone? EO or crit. Non-crit makes no sense. Even for axes (axa non crit weapons) there are just so many crit sources: attack crit chest, crit support, inc crit from golem/aura, crit from ass mark and power charges. What is harder to get is getting crit multi above 400. But you are already at 45% crit before diamond flask.

the gems for the flame burst have to be in the axe and youre wearing a kaoms heart, so no crit chest, and youre using a xophs amulet, so no crit from amulet, and if ur on an evasion dex class as the example given youre on the other side of the tree from EO so youre not going there.

"

sidtherat wrote:

Seriously.

Even if crit gave NO EXTRA DAMAGE going non crit would be STUPID.

There are just too many 'on crit' effects that missing out on them means your character is garbage. Tailwind and ellusive on crit while f.. absurd are one of so many.

Crit giving extra damage on top of all these means that crit is mandatory. Simple as that.

i have literally zero characters using tailwind or elusive on crit, and ill go the next 4 years probably without having any and it will be fine. if crit gave no extra damage then 99% of people would not be crit.

"

Marxone wrote:

I have RT in my Totem Warchief build. Needs many suffixes, getting accuracy is expensive, routing for Ele Overload is too many points. RT fixes itemization issues.

But that's probably the only build I've think of past 2 years that might actually benefit from RT.

ya, theres builds that use it, theres plenty of people using it. the people in this thread are going way overboard. crit is far too good and in most cases ur mad to just not go for a crit build, but the extent to which that is true and the extent to which rt or simply a non crit attack build is completely useless and no one plays them etc is being extremely overstated.

sids now saying if crit did no extra damage everyone would still be crit and your build would be trash without it... lol, come on man, youd do your point more justice if it didnt come with the crazy talk. we dont have to make completely absurd claims and overstatements in order to actually sell the idea that crit is too strong of an option, we can just stick to the sensible facts of the matter. youre not fooling the devs, its probably better if they dont just dismiss what youre saying as hysterical fantasy.

just look at the raw damage numbers and the survivability that is gained through ending fights in a fraction of the time, that alone makes the case 100% without question. the flavour text of abyssus used to be a meme for softcore players with /deaths 2000 who were regarded as cute but absurd madmen, now its sort of come to define the game as a whole sadly.