melee.. melee never changes

"

bionicg2040 wrote:

Spoiler

Well said. However what can we really expect from GGG?


They couldn't even fix the targeting issue (Every other ARPG doesn't have this problem how does this game have it?...still?).


I still want to know how come melee has to deal with all enemy mechanics meanwhile every other playstyle can completely ignore them (with the exception of proxy shield)? Makes me wonder if they can even make anti range (not limited to bow users) mechanics other than smaller boss room/after death effects (that are still being completely ignored)


Fuck it maybe GGG will actually fix it. Maybe they will just give melee players bows to use melee attacks with. I mean what can go wrong there?

Hell honestly I would just be fine if GGG just came out and said: "We don't know how to fix it."

Oh well back to Wolcen, Grim Dawn, Torchlight, Diablo, Titan Quest, etc. (games that do not have such abhorrent melee issues) as I await the inevitable.

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

Regardless, PoE 5.0 might bring some BALANCE regarding REAL MELEE and it's purpose, as I sadly don't feel that our "puny impact" will be addressed during 4.0 in any meaningful way...

Still practicing with those rags?

Please, I'm a believer, yet even I know when things go south, you shouldn't persist in being stubborn "just because", you need to actually start addressing the damn problems...

As I said, TencentGGG still has the [Removed by Support], which still don't know to properly address the damn danger/reward ratios in PoE EXP and loot wise, they also don't know how to keep a journey, like the leveling from 1 to 100 as relevant for the later levels, as it is for the storyline, and we all expect them to FIX the problems of an entire playstyle that lacks the damn purpose, and is simply existing as a further "increased difficulty to MAX" switch?

Really?

Just take the damn hints with their fabled "melee and spell reworks", they simply are acting like headless chickens while trying to keep at most a semblance of their initial desires.

It all devolved with their removal of any sane limits (you never add multiplicative and additive damage multipliers if you have no serious control over them, PoE is the best example why no one else should EVER attempt that), yet they happily think that breaking every barrier constantly and devolving the game to become classified as an entire genre entirely is "the only way", for them to boost PoE numbers like never before - while also never accounting for their lackluster player retention, any other sane devs wouldn't push so hard for content that 100% will be depleted by the entire player base at a speed that dwarfs their invested time - really, leagues are done these days in what 2-3 weeks max of <6 hour playtime/day?

It's sad that they never, ever talk about their goals - we acknowledge the problem of reduced difficulty, but instead of finding the right way of adjusting the limits in a sane and sustainable way, we will simply add "moar" damage and increase some % values, so the diversity touted regarding PoE will only remain "an illusion, Exile"...

So much squandered potential for what? Having bigger number burst for a short while never giving a damn about the game's longevity for a game meant to be played "forever"? They really need to "git gud & up to snuff" this century, as I fear that PoE will celebrate a decade from launch and still be a subpar example, instead of the pinnacle of the genre...

Thankfully, we still get to enjoy more competition day by day, heck, Borderlands 3 (the entire series actually) is so epic, that it feels more an ARPG than PoE does at the moment...

"

sidtherat wrote:

Glacial Hammer[/b] - same question? i know i know some managed to kill T11 boss, ive heard that. but again - why use this single target skill when you can play Frost Blades that have 1000% the clear speed and similar single target. for that every-third-hit you get microfreeze? I'll pick every-hit-freezes with a bettter skill, thank you

Challenge accepted. Stay tuned ;)

PS
Frost blades hits like a virgin.

glacial hammer:
maces and staves only
200% damage effectiveness
113 added max cold damage (optional, as -90 aliment map mod ruins this part)

1 jewel slot for damage splash (splash is cold only) and 25% conversion. MANDATORY
impossible to play without 'targeting support'

clear speed is limited to one pack at a time


frost blades:
all weapons
140% damage effectiveness
113 added max cold damage

1 jewel slot for 15% cold penetration 2 MAX. OPTIONAL if enough penetration sources are available from other sources
can be played without 'targeting support'

many-screens-wide clear speed


single target potential depends on two things:
- weapon used (phys->cold or fast ele stacking)
- penetration management (aka if we can skip FB jewels and pick (realistic) 2*multi+life+misc jewels instead

fastest realistic 1h mace is ~1.6 with 420 pdps (good multimod on Behemoth Mace)
jewelled foil with 1.9 aps and 300-500 damage (cold damage per dex, 1000 dex) 760 edps (multimoded dex damage mod)

i do not want to go all-excel (but might do it eventually) but the difference between these two skills is MUCH smaller than one would expect from single-target vs extreme-clear skills. gut feelings tell me that it is less than 10% effective difference thanks to better supports (no need for splash nor ancestral call), better scaling of flat added damage (but with less base multiplier), range allowing for much easier positioning and much broader weapon types support

glacial hammer has better enchant (15% extra phys as cold) while frost blades should in reality use Blood Rage's enchant or something similar

freezing capacity is ofc nice but if i can freeze t15 bosses with Frostbreath + Ice Crash while NOT investing in freeze in any way i presume Frost Blades can do the same esp with crits


in short. GH *might* deal higher single target damage but the difference is much smaller than the difference in clear speed. both can do endgame damage-wise but comfort-wise the winner is rather clear for anyone who tried both

oh and if you want strike cold skill: Elemental Hit has built in splash and deals ~450-850 flat added cold. sure it doesnt have high base effectiveness but it sill might be more than interesting choice if built well

I think arguing that melee - especially strike skills - is in a good shape (lol noobs) without checking relations to bows, minions, mines and spells does not make any sense. Power creep made it so people like torstein can do any normal content with utter trash build.

Due to power creep its for the normal casual players eye viable to play melee but they dont know the power of non melee builds and cant draw a relative comparison.

And no melee is not tankier - its in more danger than any other build especially against bosses and no fortify doesnt make up for it.

Btw beating uber elder with melee where NAKED zombi summoners kill UE says nothing about if a melee is in a good spot. It just means that the problems of melee are less visible due to power creep.

This discrepancy begins to show in content where power creep becomes a lesser factor which is in delve or agaist Cortex Bossfight with extra life/enfeeble.

"

zzang wrote:

I think arguing that melee - especially strike skills - is in a good shape (lol noobs) without checking relations to bows, minions, mines and spells does not make any sense. Power creep made it so people like torstein can do any normal content with utter trash build.

Due to power creep its for the normal casual players eye viable to play melee but they dont know the power of non melee builds and cant draw a relative comparison.

And no melee is not tankier - its in more danger than any other build especially against bosses and no fortify doesnt make up for it.

Btw beating uber elder with melee where NAKED zombi summoners kill UE says nothing about if a melee is in a good spot. It just means that the problems of melee are less visible due to power creep.

This discrepancy begins to show in content where power creep becomes a lesser factor which is in delve or agaist Cortex Bossfight with extra life/enfeeble.

Wooord. Time to bring melee back as the ultimate facetank everything, like a boss thing. Thank you GGG, please do it.

"

sidtherat wrote:

glacial hammer:
maces and staves only
200% damage effectiveness
113 added max cold damage (optional, as -90 aliment map mod ruins this part)

1 jewel slot for damage splash (splash is cold only) and 25% conversion. MANDATORY
impossible to play without 'targeting support'

clear speed is limited to one pack at a time


frost blades:
all weapons
140% damage effectiveness
113 added max cold damage

1 jewel slot for 15% cold penetration 2 MAX. OPTIONAL if enough penetration sources are available from other sources
can be played without 'targeting support'

many-screens-wide clear speed


single target potential depends on two things:
- weapon used (phys->cold or fast ele stacking)
- penetration management (aka if we can skip FB jewels and pick (realistic) 2*multi+life+misc jewels instead

fastest realistic 1h mace is ~1.6 with 420 pdps (good multimod on Behemoth Mace)
jewelled foil with 1.9 aps and 300-500 damage (cold damage per dex, 1000 dex) 760 edps (multimoded dex damage mod)

i do not want to go all-excel (but might do it eventually) but the difference between these two skills is MUCH smaller than one would expect from single-target vs extreme-clear skills. gut feelings tell me that it is less than 10% effective difference thanks to better supports (no need for splash nor ancestral call), better scaling of flat added damage (but with less base multiplier), range allowing for much easier positioning and much broader weapon types support

glacial hammer has better enchant (15% extra phys as cold) while frost blades should in reality use Blood Rage's enchant or something similar

freezing capacity is ofc nice but if i can freeze t15 bosses with Frostbreath + Ice Crash while NOT investing in freeze in any way i presume Frost Blades can do the same esp with crits


in short. GH *might* deal higher single target damage but the difference is much smaller than the difference in clear speed. both can do endgame damage-wise but comfort-wise the winner is rather clear for anyone who tried both

oh and if you want strike cold skill: Elemental Hit has built in splash and deals ~450-850 flat added cold. sure it doesnt have high base effectiveness but it sill might be more than interesting choice if built well

So just to be clear, in short, what is your problem(a) with GH and melee? You wrote on page one "someone killed t11 boss..."
I'm asking seriously to sum it up, cause i'm making the build guide from scratch and so far the char feels amazing. I would like to address the probs you think are making the skill or melee in general crap.
Give me a list with key points.

what is my problem? read my OP again but:

- garbage targeting forcing the use of Targeting Support (aka 40% damage loss or clunky support juggling)
- MANDATORY threshold jewel (unless someone really wants to waste yet another slot for Splash
- conditional flat damage added (-xx% chance to apply aliments cuts your damage BAD)
- barely any higher single target damage than all-out AOE skill (Frost Blades)
- no AOE potential outside AC+MS (aka no AOE)
- short list of compatible weapons (aka doesnt work with foils, aka garbage)

there is no reason any sane player picks this one as it does NOTHING better than other alternatives (no, 33% cull does not work vs bosses)

if you think this skill is in good spot - check Divine Ire or most of the list from your Garbo List (the only one from it that is trully sh.. is Lightning Tendrils yet it still does have more AOE and damage than GH)

Glacial Hammer should have been removed from this game or given like 350% damage effectiveness to make it a viable pick. right now it is piece of sh..

"

sidtherat wrote:

what is my problem? read my OP again but:

- garbage targeting forcing the use of Targeting Support
- MANDATORY threshold jewel (unless someone really wants to waste yet another slot for Splash
- conditional flat damage added (-xx% chance to apply aliments cuts your damage BAD)
- barely any higher single target damage than all-out AOE skill (Frost Blades)
- no AOE potential outside AC+MS (aka no AOE)

there is no reason any sane player picks this one as it does NOTHING better than other alternatives (no, 33% cull does not work vs bosses)

if you think this skill is in good spot - check Divine Ire or most of the list from your Garbo List (the only one from it that is trully sh.. is Lightning Tendrils yet it still does have more AOE and damage than GH)

Glacial Hammer should have been removed from this game or given like 350% damage effectiveness to make it a viable pick. right now it is piece of sh..

:))) Hold my bear (for a few days) :D you are in for a surprise

ps that damage effectiveness kinda doesn't work like intended

once you complete your build do us a favour:

run one map with it and then - with the EXACTLY SAME setup - swap GH for Frost Blades

let us be the judges

"

sidtherat wrote:

once you complete your build do us a favour:

run one map with it and then - with the EXACTLY SAME setup - swap GH for Frost Blades

let us be the judges

I already know the answer, but don't want to spoil it :P that's why my chars are hidden for the moment.