+1 Spectre Body Armour and the Midnight Bargain - My issues with the changes

You may not care about zombies and skellies but the wand still provides those so your argument still fails.

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Phaeded wrote:

You may not care about zombies and skellies but the wand still provides those so your argument still fails.

Not really? an additional spectre is a more significant DPS boost and harder to obtain than an additional zombie or skeleton which can be crafted where as additional spectres cannot be crafted.

I don't think its my argument that is failing to carry any weight here.

You are proposing to have the same negative stat on the armor as the wand when they don't provide equivalent power boosts. Your argument is weak and keeps getting weaker, Sounds more like plain old qq at this point.

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Phaeded wrote:

You are proposing to have the same negative stat on the armor as the wand when they don't provide equivalent power boosts. Your argument is weak and keeps getting weaker, Sounds more like plain old qq at this point.

I am proposing some kind of cost, does it have to be exactly 30% of their life? no but there should be some kind of cost for such a significant increase in dps when i'm taking a 60% hit to my life that cannot be mitigated for simply 1 more spectre and taking away the possibility of having those pets in a 6link weapon which far surpasses even the recent buffs to the bargain.

All I'm hearing is that MB isn't the optimal choice if you want to go spectres only. I'm not hearing anything that justifies a nerf to the suit. Again, your arguments are extremely weak and self-serving.

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Phaeded wrote:

All I'm hearing is that MB isn't the optimal choice if you want to go spectres only. I'm not hearing anything that justifies a nerf to the suit. Again, your arguments are extremely weak and self-serving.

Until this patch the midnight bargain allowed for +2 spectres over any other spectre build at a significant cost.. a cost which most people were not willing to pay to equip more than 1 of these wands generally.

And OPTIMAL? i do not recall having implied that it is optimal as i've clearly stated going with a pledge of hands or some other option is actually better in most situations.

The base pledge of hands is a 7link weapon with a spell echo that essentially doubles the dps output and just a little under triple with an additional spell echo slotted compared to the 120% boost from the midnight bargains, If you are aware of how minion spell casting works its quite a big deal to have additional spectres while also having these spell echoes.

I'm not asking for more spectres i'm asking for balance to return between the midnight bargain and other options, A balance that has existed essentially since i started playing for good reason.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

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Phaeded wrote:

All I'm hearing is that MB isn't the optimal choice if you want to go spectres only. I'm not hearing anything that justifies a nerf to the suit. Again, your arguments are extremely weak and self-serving.

Until this patch the midnight bargain allowed for +2 spectres over any other spectre build at a significant cost.. a cost which most people were not willing to pay to equip more than 1 of these wands generally.

And OPTIMAL? i do not recall having implied that it is optimal as i've clearly stated going with a pledge of hands or some other option is actually better in most situations.

The base pledge of hands is a 7link weapon with a spell echo that essentially doubles the dps output and just a little under triple with an additional spell echo slotted compared to the 120% boost from the midnight bargains, If you are aware of how minion spell casting works its quite a big deal to have additional spectres while also having these spell echoes.

I'm not asking for more spectres i'm asking for balance to return between the midnight bargain and other options, A balance that has existed essentially since i started playing for good reason.

so basically you are whining because you loved your double midnight bargain setup which is not as optimal as it used to be. ''The grass is always greener on the other side''.

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andreicde wrote:

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SilentSymphony wrote:

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Phaeded wrote:

All I'm hearing is that MB isn't the optimal choice if you want to go spectres only. I'm not hearing anything that justifies a nerf to the suit. Again, your arguments are extremely weak and self-serving.

Until this patch the midnight bargain allowed for +2 spectres over any other spectre build at a significant cost.. a cost which most people were not willing to pay to equip more than 1 of these wands generally.

And OPTIMAL? i do not recall having implied that it is optimal as i've clearly stated going with a pledge of hands or some other option is actually better in most situations.

The base pledge of hands is a 7link weapon with a spell echo that essentially doubles the dps output and just a little under triple with an additional spell echo slotted compared to the 120% boost from the midnight bargains, If you are aware of how minion spell casting works its quite a big deal to have additional spectres while also having these spell echoes.

I'm not asking for more spectres i'm asking for balance to return between the midnight bargain and other options, A balance that has existed essentially since i started playing for good reason.

so basically you are whining because you loved your double midnight bargain setup which is not as optimal as it used to be. ''The grass is always greener on the other side''.

Seeing as you are currently using a multi-modded version of this body on your multi-minion aurabot of course you would be against the idea of anything bad happening with it that might sacrifice your almost entirely free dps boost.

The cost no longer is worth what you get versus what other builds can get without the midnight bargain wands, Not that anyone really went double midnight before this patch anyway and if they did they were part of an extremely small percentage of players doing it end-game.

Anywho the "you are whining" thing is so weightless, You can surely do better than that and perhaps use some logic and math to prove me wrong, If such a time were come that i felt someone sufficiently disproved what i am saying here i would inevitably yield as i have in many topics i was passionate about.

And to the repeated comments on "it gives zombies and skeletons too" it gave these before this patch where as the number of spectres max on average has gone up by 1 with next to zero cost and ceartainly no sacrifice whatsoever compared to the bargain.

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Fruz wrote:

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SilentSymphony wrote:

I don't care at all about zombies or skeletons, Only Spectres.

That does not quite matter here though, as a matter of balance, the item needs to be considered for everything it gives.

Those +1 zombie and +1 skeletons on their own would hardly be worth the investement, but it's still a plus that spectre mains can use.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

I am saying that using 2x midnight bargain should result in having 2 more spectres than are possible(not additional to the current number) in any other build not using a bargain.

Why ?

You could also use Esh's Visage with only one midnight bargain to gain +1 spectre and use the chest of your choice, getting a 'free' maim support gem in the chest for example. This is a possibility, and should be considered too.

You could also use a single midnight bargain with a high ES shield to go for a more defensive ES setup, which is harder to obtain from a good delve +1 spectre chest because of how hard it would be to obtain.


Double midnight bargain already gives you +1 spectre than just the chest, it's a questionable choice, but it can work. It being possible does not mean that it's the main purpose of the item though.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Someone with a damned pledge of hands should not be able to have the same amount of spectres as someone using 2x Midnight bargain without a significant cost.

Where do you get that additional +1 spectre after the chest ? ( if using pledge of hands )
Where is the +1 that I am missing ?

Sorry Fruz i totally missed that entire post before, Thanks for the constructive input as usual, Your points are well thought out and honestly i am considering a lot of similar options to fine tune this build however achieving great heights while using 2x midnight bargain has always been a goal of mine so im admittedly quite salty that achieving it now is basically a waste of time and effort.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Someone with a damned pledge of hands should not be able to have the same amount of spectres as someone using 2x Midnight bargain without a significant cost.

it's funny that the above is the basis of this entire bizarre rambling.

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robmafia wrote:

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Someone with a damned pledge of hands should not be able to have the same amount of spectres as someone using 2x Midnight bargain without a significant cost.

it's funny that the above is the basis of this entire bizarre rambling.

It's definitely part of why this thread exists but not the entirety of the reasoning behind it.

What's really funny is that despite having the largest anti power creep thread on this forum you seem to be totally fine with attacking a topic that is basically asking for power creep to be reversed.