+1 Spectre Body Armour and the Midnight Bargain - My issues with the changes

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robmafia wrote:

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SilentSymphony wrote:

at levels 11 and 21 you gain back the two +1 to maximum spectres lost in the update which removed it from the Vis Mortis and Bones of ullr

and?

it's not 3.7

your math doesn't add up. you can't just say the spectre gem includes +1 spectre from the chestpiece. because it doesn't.

where did they come from then? why was vis mortis changed to +1 levels and had its +1 to maximum spectre removed as well as the boots if this was not where the 2 spectres went, clearly this is the case just like other things were merged into zombies and skeletons these were merged into the gem itself.

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robmafia wrote:

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SilentSymphony wrote:

really lol? you don't understand?

i don't think there's a valid point to understand.

Then why reply if you are unwilling to understand something.

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robmafia wrote:

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SilentSymphony wrote:

I don't care at all about zombies or skeletons, Only Spectres.

lolz.

obviously. that was CLEARLY my point. you're omitting affixes.

I use the midnight bargain for the Spectres, i could care less about the skeletons and zombies.. in terms of numbers gain of minions between the 3 spells the midnight bargain is primarily a Spectre unique.

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robmafia wrote:

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SilentSymphony wrote:

That thread was about the rarity of the nodes from which the chests drops and them being obtainable within the span of a league, Please stop pretending that it has anything to do with this topic.

it has EVERYTHING to do with this topic.

you wanted them accessible. then you said it was added to the gem. that makes it freely accessible. by YOUR own statements, you have no complaint.

I wanted the chest to be more accessible however the entire point behind my defense of that thread was rendered inert by the fact that you can now achieve 4 spectres without the chest piece.

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robmafia wrote:

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SilentSymphony wrote:

I never asked to have more spectres, not in that thread.. not in this thread.

you literally did. you want to have more spectres than others.

While wielding 2 midnight bargains... Not MORE spectres than are now possible or in the past.

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robmafia wrote:

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Someone with a damned pledge of hands should not be able to have the same amount of spectres as someone using 2x Midnight bargain without a significant cost.

huh? how is this the same?

Clarify your question please in more detail, what are you not getting there.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

where did they come from then? why was vis mortis changed to +1 levels and had its +1 to maximum spectre removed as well as the boots if this was not where the 2 spectres went, clearly this is the case just like other things were merged into zombies and skeletons these were merged into the gem itself.

wtf?

why do you think they had to have "come from" somewhere? 'where did cyclone's aoe come from?'

why don't you just see gem reworks as they are?

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Then why reply if you are unwilling to understand something.

*facepalm*

you do not have a valid point. it is you who does not understand this.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Someone with a damned pledge of hands should not be able to have the same amount of spectres as someone using 2x Midnight bargain without a significant cost.

huh? how is this the same?

Clarify your question please in more detail, what are you not getting there.

your math. how is a pledge user having the same amount of spectres as someone dual wielding midnight bargains?

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robmafia wrote:

your math. how is a pledge user having the same amount of spectres as someone dual wielding midnight bargains?

Gem level 21 + skill tree = 4 Spectres
+
Delve Chest = 5 Spectres
+
Gem level 21 + 1 from boots = 22 + empower 4 = 25 + necromancer ascendancy = 27 + fossil crafted +3 minion helmet with +1 to int or str gems 31 = 6 Spectres

i mean shit sure at the point they go from 5 to 6 it is no longer socketed in the pledge of hands but given that the helmet can be elder this allows for level 20: minion damage, minion life, conc effect and a few other significant applicable effects its still in a 6link.

6 spectres + 6link body + 6link weapon allowing for 6link(zombie in chest) and 6link(skeletons) in weapon.

whatever the setup i don't really care it should not be possible to reach that many spectres without using 2x midnight bargain.. in terms of POWER CREEP which i know you hate i cant see why you're fighting me on this one.

Pledge of hands user can still have 5 spectres extremely easily however without all of those hoops listed above to jump through while a midnight bargain user is still suffering 2x 30% hp reservation that is not possible to mitigate for 1x more spectre than the pledge(insert any other beneficial 2hander of which there are many) pledge is just the most notable for many spell casting spectres.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

your math. how is a pledge user having the same amount of spectres as someone dual wielding midnight bargains?

Gem level 21 + skill tree = 4 Spectres
+
Delve Chest = 5 Spectres
+
Gem level 21 + 1 from boots = 22 + empower 4 = 25 + necromancer ascendancy = 27 + fossil crafted +3 minion helmet with +1 to int or str gems 31 = 6 Spectres

i mean shit sure at that point it is no longer socketed in the pledge of hands but given that the helmet can be elder this allows for level 20: minion damage, minion life, conc effect and a few other significant applicable effects.

So ... in short, a pledge of hands user has one less spectre than a double midnight bargain user.

And somebody with such a ridiculously rare/expensive chest has the same amount of spectres, with only 3 support gems ( or even a more ridiculous helmet if it is even possible ? I don't know if the +1 level is a mod that can be applied to helmets, I don't think I've ever seen one )

So in short ... you get a 6 4L spectres of higher level ( 7 levels higher with ridiculous gear ), against 6 6L spectres ( less level but with potentially more than double the damage before the level difference due to the two extra supports ).



Seems to me like your premise is wrong then.


PS : and that crazy setup that you're talking about has :
- purely offensive 2H weapon ( with no global minion mods on it )
- pretty much purely offensive helmet ( at least 2 preffixes used if not 3 )
- purely offensive boots
- likely not ideal or extremely expensive chest

That leaves the gloves as the only piece of armour that can be made defensive without a ridiculous cost.

In other words a complete glass canon, that has only gloves + boots for utility / aura / movement skills, etc ...

Tldr : can we be a bit realistic for a second ? T_T

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Fruz wrote:

So ... in short, a pledge of hands user has one less spectre than a double midnight bargain user.

correct it drives me absolutely mad

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Fruz wrote:

And somebody with such a ridiculously rare/expensive chest has the same amount of spectres, with only 3 support gems ( or even a more ridiculous helmet if it is even possible ? I don't know if the +1 level of int gems is a prefix or suffix, I did not even know that it was possible, I don't think I've ever seen one )

They literally range on the first page of poe.trade from 1-20 chaos
http://poe.trade/search/koritonoyonihi
Anulling one down to just +1 spectres and multicrafting is a small task at that price so no it is not a rediculously rare or expensive.

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Fruz wrote:

So in short ... you get a 6 4L spectres of higher level ( 7 levels higher with ridiculous gear ), against 6 6L spectres ( less level but with potentially more than double the damage before the level difference due to the two extra supports ).

Elder allows for a 5-6 link potentially and the mods can easier be achieved by dropping the pledge of hands and going 2x convoking/any wands with global gem level +2 removing the need for +3 to minion and +1 to int or str gems

I still think its a bunch of crap no matter how i look at it.

So +1 spectre chests are much more common than I thought, my bad, that's a big difference alright.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Elder allows for a 5-6 link potentially and the mods can easier be achieved by dropping the pledge of hands and going 2x convoking/any wands with global gem level +2 removing the need for +3 to minion and +1 to int or str gems

Dropping the Pledge of hands is already much more realistic.

+2 convoking wands seem extremely rare, I cannot even find a single one on e poe.trade right now, including offline sellers.

If you get 2*+1 convoking wand, you still need a +5 level from the helmet, so +2 and empower 3 or +3 and empower 2, in both case you are down to 3 remaining links and the shaper extra link, that makes the extra levels + 4 actual supports.

Against a 6L in the chest, and you dedicated pretty much your whole gear to get that, and you only get high level spectres with 4 links (one without quality) in there.
That seems like just a trade off to me, a more expensive trade off.

Plus, 6*6L is more than enough damage to obliterate everything, you can get plenty of zombies (2 extra from midnight bargain) with meatshield on top of that, potentially in a +1 pseudo support helmet too.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

your math. how is a pledge user having the same amount of spectres as someone dual wielding midnight bargains?

Gem level 21 + skill tree = 4 Spectres
+
Delve Chest = 5 Spectres
+
Gem level 21 + 1 from boots = 22 + empower 4 = 25 + necromancer ascendancy = 27 + fossil crafted +3 minion helmet with +1 to int or str gems 31 = 6 Spectres

...but you can use that same gear with midnight bargain, rendering your point woefully moot.

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robmafia wrote:

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SilentSymphony wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

your math. how is a pledge user having the same amount of spectres as someone dual wielding midnight bargains?

Gem level 21 + skill tree = 4 Spectres
+
Delve Chest = 5 Spectres
+
Gem level 21 + 1 from boots = 22 + empower 4 = 25 + necromancer ascendancy = 27 + fossil crafted +3 minion helmet with +1 to int or str gems 31 = 6 Spectres

...but you can use that same gear with midnight bargain, rendering your point woefully moot.

That is the bottom line right there. Run the same setup with two midnight bargains and you’re “number one spectre master” again. This thread is pointless.

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robmafia wrote:

...but you can use that same gear with midnight bargain, rendering your point woefully moot.

I'm sure you'd like to think that is true, Just because you can do something does not mean it is viable endgame, 5 spectre without midnight is extremely viable, 6 spectre with midnight is extremely viable.

7 with midnight or even better 8 would be a pretty far stretch from viable, Go make a 7+ (without soul wick) spectre midnight bargain build and defeat uber elder and i will gladly admit defeat.

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Phaeded wrote:

That is the bottom line right there. Run the same setup with two midnight bargains and you’re “number one spectre master” again. This thread is pointless.

The fact that someone can have 5 spectres on a 6 link weapon with almost zero cost compared to the midnight bargain is enough for me to push this thread well into eternity.

Then there is the 1 midnight + victario(necro aegis) + chestpiece build which results in 6 specs and significantly increased damage from frenzy/power charges and at this point the 30% life reservation and i'm still stuck with 60%on my end with less damage, note basic critical strike is 150% of damage and if you are aware of how much crit and other stats are obtained through charges for monsters this is pretty messed up too.

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Fruz wrote:

So +1 spectre chests are much more common than I thought, my bad, that's a big difference alright.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Elder allows for a 5-6 link potentially and the mods can easier be achieved by dropping the pledge of hands and going 2x convoking/any wands with global gem level +2 removing the need for +3 to minion and +1 to int or str gems

Dropping the Pledge of hands is already much more realistic.

+2 convoking wands seem extremely rare, I cannot even find a single one on e poe.trade right now, including offline sellers.

If you get 2*+1 convoking wand, you still need a +5 level from the helmet, so +2 and empower 3 or +3 and empower 2, in both case you are down to 3 remaining links and the shaper extra link, that makes the extra levels + 4 actual supports.

Against a 6L in the chest, and you dedicated pretty much your whole gear to get that, and you only get high level spectres with 4 links (one without quality) in there.
That seems like just a trade off to me, a more expensive trade off.

Plus, 6*6L is more than enough damage to obliterate everything, you can get plenty of zombies (2 extra from midnight bargain) with meatshield on top of that, potentially in a +1 pseudo support helmet too.

Woah now i meant +1 to minion level on each wand lol, I'm not sure +2 exists /shrug

the wiki seems to think im wrong on getting to 6 spectres without the bargains or soul wick.

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Anywho again @Everyone i do not care about using zombies or skeletons i am 100% dedicated to spectres as a summoner.. I have been playing this build for a very long time and the 60% life reservation without any possibility to mitigate that has been difficult to manage.

Now without that struggle people are able to enjoy the same or relative number of spectres without this cost.. if this is difficult to understand then i don't know what to say, This build has been one of the biggest driving forces for me to continue playing this game and perhaps i have new heights to achieve here and am over-reacting but it will never feel right that someone with a 6link weapon such as the pledge can have 1 less spectre than a double midnight bargain user(60% life reserved) with no significant downside such as a 30% life reservation for that additional spectre.

If someone can not understand even the basic concept of where i am coming from here they are wasting their time completely.

there's so much *facepalm* in these posts.

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The fact that someone can have 5 spectres on a 6 link weapon with almost zero cost compared to the midnight bargain is enough for me to push this thread well into eternity.

Then there is the 1 midnight + victario(necro aegis) + chestpiece build which results in 6 specs and significantly increased damage from frenzy/power charges and at this point the 30% life reservation and i'm still stuck with 60%on my end with less damage, note basic critical strike is 150% of damage and if you are aware of how much crit and other stats are obtained through charges for monsters this is pretty messed up too.

THEN RUN THAT, INSTEAD.

my god, man.

you say that 2 midnights is the same amount of spectres as pledge. it's factually not. you cherrypick gear, cherrypick pretend reasons for the #spectres per gem level, inexplicably compare pledge with gear to 2 midnights naked or something, describe a cheap build you think is better, while pretending that you have to run 2 midnights because spectres... while omitting half of the affixes (speed, zombie, skel) on midnight bargains, anyway.

no idea why you think midnight bargin is the be-all spectre endgame weapon. it clearly is not based on logic, facts, or reality.


it's sad when you got your power creep wish but resort to even more absurd complaints because you CHOOSE not to have more spectres than some pretend example in your head.

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Anywho again @Everyone i do not care about using zombies or skeletons i am 100% dedicated to spectres as a summoner..

then why are you insistent that a low level item with skel, zombie, and minion speed mods is, was, and should be the best spectre choice?

i'm going to cut my leg off and then complain about shoes.