+1 Spectre Body Armour and the Midnight Bargain - My issues with the changes

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robmafia wrote:

and yet, you're using midnight bargains, disproving your own claim.

Lol that disproves nothing, Feel free to explain how that equals what you stated above.

I'm using them because im A: stubborn as hell and B: because i'm still trying to find a way to make using them better over the other options for endgame.

the amount of backpedaling is just unreal at this point.

you say it's not worth using midnights... you're using midnights.

you say this thread is about reversing power creep - you're advocating for midnight bargain to be buffed (AGAIN)

you say that running 2 midnights somehow isn't +2 max spectres over pledge of hands (HUH????) - and non-convoking wand builds

you say i said something about midnights being +4 spectres or something (...HUH????) (and notice, zero citations)

you said others can run the same amount of spectres (they can't) without much cost (false), but your example of this was some dumb helm and an empower gem... as if you can't use the helm/empower if midnights are equipped.



no part of your argument seems to still exist/be fact-based.

and still no citations for anything i took out of context, either. what a surprise. /s

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robmafia wrote:

the amount of backpedaling is just unreal at this point.

you say it's not worth using midnights... you're using midnights.

^

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SilentSymphony wrote:

i'm still trying to find a way to make using them better over the other options for endgame.

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robmafia wrote:

you say this thread is about reversing power creep - you're advocating for midnight bargain to be buffed (AGAIN)

So you're claiming that the +1 to maximum spectre armour staying in the game despite the changes in 3.8 is not power creep?

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robmafia wrote:

you say i said something about midnights being +4 spectres or something (...HUH????) (and notice, zero citations)

You clearly stated many times im asking for the bargain to be buffed and that i wanted more spectres, I do not want more than i have now, I'm not asking for that number to be increased.

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robmafia wrote:

you said others can run the same amount of spectres (they can't) without much cost (false), but your example of this was some dumb helm and an empower gem... as if you can't use the helm/empower if midnights are equipped.

You're forgetting the cost implied for these additional spectres which has been brought up in 50%+ of my posts and how all of this ties together in why i made this topic in the first place.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

i'm still trying to find a way to make using them better over the other options for endgame.

But they shouldn't be...

They've had their time, and now it is time for them to fade away so the game can stay new and interesting.

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Cyzax wrote:

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SilentSymphony wrote:

i'm still trying to find a way to make using them better over the other options for endgame.

But they shouldn't be...

They've had their time, and now it is time for them to fade away so the game can stay new and interesting.

I most definitely disagree with the wands fading away, kind of the whole point here.

That being said i do want the game to remain interesting and exciting, The addition of brands not long ago was a wonderful example of how they can do this without destroying the past additions and it intertwined with totem nodes in a very nice way.. it has balance.

I mostly care about that balance and no matter how i look at it i just dont see it with the bargain and other alternatives for spectres.

you literally stated numerous times that you want more spectres THAN _____.

funny enough, each time, you seem to HAVE MORE SPECTRES THAN _____.

it's as if you think that midnight bargain cannot be used with a +1 spectre armor, or something.

because none of this makes any sense. ie: pledge. the bone helm. and apparently believing that you can't remove the pledge, equip 2 midnights and have +2 max spectres. it makes no sense. none. zero. zilch.

speaking of zero - still zero citations. why am i not at all surprised?

advocates power creep. claims it's about removing power creep. lolwut

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robmafia wrote:

it's as if you think that midnight bargain cannot be used with a +1 spectre armor, or something.

because none of this makes any sense. ie: pledge. the bone helm. and apparently believing that you can't remove the pledge, equip 2 midnights and have +2 max spectres. it makes no sense. none. zero. zilch.

I can but the cost compared to someone not using 2x midnight bargains who is already paying a heavy price is immense compared to any other spectre build going from 4 to 5 spectres, This is kind of the one of the major points of the thread ( ' ')b

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robmafia wrote:

speaking of zero - still zero citations. why am i not at all surprised?

Here's a quote for ya.

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robmafia wrote:

you literally stated numerous times that you want more spectres THAN _____.

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robmafia wrote:

advocates power creep. claims it's about removing power creep. lolwut

^

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SilentSymphony wrote:

So you're claiming that the +1 to maximum spectre armour staying in the game despite the changes in 3.8 is not power creep?

Seeing as one of my most proposed ideas in this thread was to have it removed and that you own the largest anti power creep thread on the forum i should think you would be for that part of this if nothing else in this thread.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

it's as if you think that midnight bargain cannot be used with a +1 spectre armor, or something.

because none of this makes any sense. ie: pledge. the bone helm. and apparently believing that you can't remove the pledge, equip 2 midnights and have +2 max spectres. it makes no sense. none. zero. zilch.

I can but the cost compared to someone not using 2x midnight bargains who is already paying a heavy price is immense compared to any other spectre build going from 4 to 5 spectres, This is kind of the one of the major points of the thread ( ' ')b

ok. for hopefully the final time:

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

math does not support this.

why do you keep comparing weapons to a chestpiece? why do you keep acting as if they're mutually exclusive?

what are you talking about? seriously. explain. if you even can, because after 10 pages, it seems that you simply can't.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

speaking of zero - still zero citations. why am i not at all surprised?

Here's a quote for ya.

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robmafia wrote:

you literally stated numerous times that you want more spectres THAN _____.

???

that was a direct quote, btw. and one i even previously highlighted in cyan, so... you got nothin? got it.

*and quoted below, for lulz.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Seeing as one of my most proposed ideas in this thread was to have it removed and that you own the largest anti power creep thread on the forum i should think you would be for that part of this if nothing else in this thread.

seeing as how you're blatantly asking for power creep, this is clearly just hypocrisy and an attempt to spin this to try to get me on your side.

as if you didn't just argue the opposite last month. and as if wanting power creep is somehow anti power creep.

you want power creep. worse, you want power creep that helps you, specifically, and few others.


* last page:

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Which is incorrect i do not want more spectres i want using 2x midnight bargain to result in 2 more spectres than any other endgame spectre build,

first post of thread:

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SilentSymphony wrote:

I should have 2 more spectres than any other spectre build not using 2x midnight bargain if i am fully invested into raise spectre as my core skill.

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robmafia wrote:

it's as if you think that midnight bargain cannot be used with a +1 spectre armor, or something.

^

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SilentSymphony wrote:

I can but the cost compared to someone not using 2x midnight bargains who is already paying a heavy price is immense compared to any other spectre build going from 4 to 5 spectres, This is kind of the one of the major points of the thread ( ' ')b

^have you actually done the math on dps/shaper dps for these alternate builds? I'm gonna have to say no you have not.

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robmafia wrote:

ok. for hopefully the final time:

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

math does not support this.

Here is a thread that explains what I'm talking about.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2658687

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robmafia wrote:

why do you keep comparing weapons to a chestpiece? why do you keep acting as if they're mutually exclusive?

what are you talking about? seriously. explain. if you even can, because after 10 pages, it seems that you simply can't.

^

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SilentSymphony wrote:

the cost compared to someone not using 2x midnight bargains who is already paying a heavy price is immense compared to any other spectre build going from 4 to 5 spectres, This is kind of the one of the major points of the thread ( ' ')b

^

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SilentSymphony wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

speaking of zero - still zero citations. why am i not at all surprised?

Here's a quote for ya.

"

robmafia wrote:

you literally stated numerous times that you want more spectres THAN _____.

I keep saying i am not asking for more spectres than i currently have.

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robmafia wrote:

seeing as how you're blatantly asking for power creep, this is clearly just hypocrisy and an attempt to spin this to try to get me on your side.

as if you didn't just argue the opposite last month. and as if wanting power creep is somehow anti power creep.

you want power creep. worse, you want power creep that helps you, specifically, and few others.

^

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Seeing as one of my most proposed ideas in this thread was to have it removed and that you own the largest anti power creep thread on the forum i should think you would be for that part of this if nothing else in this thread.

Power creep is literally the last alternative to what i am asking here.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

So you're claiming that the +1 to maximum spectre armour staying in the game despite the changes in 3.8 is not power creep?

No comment?

Something from the main page is wrong at almost nullifies all arguments here.

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considering the previous maximum with the armour + boots was 4 and of course 6 with 2 midnight bargains..

This is not quite true. Midnight Bargain was introduced in 0.9.12f and Vis Mortis was introduced in 1.1 (according to wiki/the release date of 1.1 was 4th March 2014).

It means that only for few patches (although 1.5 years) 2x MB was granting 2 more spectres than non-MB setup. For more than 5 years realistic MB setup only grants you 1 more spectre than usual setup (before 3.8 1 default + 1 boots + 1 chest + 1 skill tree = 4/ 1 default + 1 boots + 2 MB + 1 skill tree = 5 (assuming you're using Shavronne's Wrappings as a chest in MB setup)).
Why haven't you complained before?

IMO MB was never designed to give 2 more spectres than other setups and it still is true for today. It even was buffed to be comparable with new Convoking Wands.

Also having 5 spectres for usual spectre build became a bit more difficult (no vis mortis anymore). Those unrealistic 6-7 spectres setups are almost irrelevant and also available for MB setup just without spectre from chest.

You are complaining about non-existing design issue (clearly not a balance issue here and I just tried to explain why it's not a design problem).