Trading sucks.

@CyberWizard85
It's a waste of your time. All this "trade bloatfesto" is nothing more than adding "ideology" to some complete idiocy. There are a whole bunch of people in the world who think that the Earth is flat. And they also have a lot of theories and "manifestos" about it. And the truth is that this "movement" has some leaders who, for money collected from naive "followers", for example, make cruises in search of "the end of the world." You know, such cruises on a luxury yacht, with champagne, girls and similar attractions.

The same in PoE. The assumption is that the more time a player spends "in the game" (not necessarily playing it, it is enough that he sits at this game, for example, in hideout, dealing in "trading"), the more willing to spend money on things that the game offers. That is why trade is so shitty. It is specially designed to be maximally time-consuming. Added to this is the profit from premium tabs.

Only the game developers can't tell players "Hey, we need to steal as much of your time as possible, but we don't want to do good content since we can do the same with the shitty trading system." that's why they released this senseless "manifesto", whose content some people really believed and now wave it like some Bible.

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girng wrote:

Sometimes it's good, and sometimes it's bad. Overall, I've been able to purchase 98% of the items I've searched. Sure, sometimes it lags out and you get bombarded, or received messages from old items, but it's not as bad as you are making it seem.

Or your items just don't get indexed in the first place. Or the indexer needs 30+ minutes to realize you've listed something. Or your item just doesn't show up on the OFFICIAL trade-site as it only handles the first 5000 results (and ignores all other ones) or people can't answer because they are in some type of content which needs concentration or you're getting spammed for putting up much needed (but cheap) items or you just can't find anyone for 30+ minutes to even answer when exchanging currency or....

You see the issue(s)? It's not like there are proper upsides to alleviate those.
Heck, even a problem-ridden system like that in WoW would be better.

Oh wait, we don't need that though! Max listing time is 7 days and then you need to re-list, problem solved. Actual bidding for items without a fixed price. Asynchronous trading so people can accept offers in their HO even if you're in a different timezone. Showcasing items market-style to have an incentive for visiting HO's of other people (And see MTX-stuff).

So many viable options available, none taken.

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Fapmobile wrote:

Read the trade manifesto.

Also auction house would destroy this game. No need for debates.

The Trade Manifesto is a load of BS for anyone who has knowledge of economy as well as game-development. I hence have to think you have no clue about either of those.

An AH itself wouldn't destroy the game. A PROPER AH at least not, with proper Auction-mechanics and limitations.
Also a quick-trade option itself for consumables or exchanging currency wouldn't do that.

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CyberWizardB5 wrote:

People heavily engaged in trade get better items because they get most of their currency comes from the market itself, buying low and selling high (often with price-fixing trick)

An AH will remove the price fixers and alow much more people buy and sell at fair rates and reduce the profit of players engaged in trade

Don't forget that a pure in-game option disables bots from interacting with the API, hence having an actual harder time to find items in a sensible manner as live-searches are a thing of the past.

Not to speak of it being beginner-friendly since people immediately are able to see the ACTUAL value of an item if the system is set up so trades can't be cancelled after the buyer accepts the set price. The only downside is 'don't missclick' which is fine as that's on your personal part and secondly can be easily avoided by forcing a confirmation before listing an item.


Otherwise your post is a pure +1 besides the part about an AH not being able to destroy the economy. It can... but you need to be really incompetent to implement an iteration which does it. Plenty of available mechanics out there to take care of the issue. Time limitations, amount of listing limitations, max-time of listings, listing-fees, selling-fees, waiting times.... so many options.

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The Trade Manifesto is a load of BS for anyone who has knowledge of economy as well as game-development.

You almost sound like you have any.

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LaiTash wrote:

"

The Trade Manifesto is a load of BS for anyone who has knowledge of economy as well as game-development.

You almost sound like you have any.

Yes.

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Kulze wrote:

Or your items just don't get indexed in the first place. Or the indexer needs 30+ minutes to realize you've listed something. Or your item just doesn't show up on the OFFICIAL trade-site as it only handles the first 5000 results (and ignores all other ones) or people can't answer because they are in some type of content which needs concentration or you're getting spammed for putting up much needed (but cheap) items or you just can't find anyone for 30+ minutes to even answer when exchanging currency or....

You see the issue(s)? It's not like there are proper upsides to alleviate those.
Heck, even a problem-ridden system like that in WoW would be better.

Oh wait, we don't need that though! Max listing time is 7 days and then you need to re-list, problem solved. Actual bidding for items without a fixed price. Asynchronous trading so people can accept offers in their HO even if you're in a different timezone. Showcasing items market-style to have an incentive for visiting HO's of other people (And see MTX-stuff).

So many viable options available, none taken.

Lol, that's not really true. Indexer sites have rarely taken that long to list items. Sure, it might take that long, but rarely. These issues are blown out of proportion. And trading has become easier and easier since they added the new trade indexer.

Your solution will devalue and degrade an item's value over time. Why? Automation + Instant Gratification.

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Kulze wrote:

The Trade Manifesto is a load of BS for anyone who has knowledge of economy as well as game-development. I hence have to think you have no clue about either of those.

One of the most popular online games in the world, but they don't have any knowledge of game-development? That's not how it works.

They definitely have game-development knowledge, their values and beliefs just don't align with yours.

..which is okay.

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girng wrote:

Lol, that's not really true. Indexer sites have rarely taken that long to list items. Sure, it might take that long, but rarely. These issues are blown out of proportion. And trading has become easier and easier since they added the new trade indexer.

Yes yes... we can clearly see that since last league. It's not the indexer sites that have an issue, it's the internal API from GGG.
Indexer sites need what? 10 seconds to update? At max?
The problem is that the integrated API doesn't work properly.

Test it out yourself, take 10 items which are in high demand, price them very cheap so live-searches trigger and then wait. Easy test to see how long the indexers need to receive the actual data.

Common time is 5 minutes, it goes up to 30 minutes at times (at peak hours.) and some of them... don't get listed at all.

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girng wrote:

Your solution will devalue and degrade an item's value over time. Why? Automation + Instant Gratification.

'Solution'... maybe you should read the whole post instead of a tidbit? Upon taking in the whole provided information you can easily see that my 'solution' is actually a large amount of possible 'solutions' which can be adjusted regarding to the respective needs.
But well, if you want to properly argue then go ahead and deliver your reasoning for WHY it would degrade the value.

Automation is not an instant reason for de-valuation.
Instant gratification isn't existing in my suggestions of a proper Auction. (So that part alone is already wrong)

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girng wrote:

One of the most popular online games in the world, but they don't have any knowledge of game-development? That's not how it works.

Isn't it? Then EA is a mastermind of marketing which couldn't foresee that Lootboxes in such a measure would inevitably fall under regulations by law in many countries. (Battleground II)

Also by your reasoning Bethesda's Fallout 76 shouldn't have failed, but obviously they didn't knew that removing their selling point (world-building with high immersion) would make it fail, right?

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girng wrote:

They definitely have game-development knowledge, their values and beliefs just don't align with yours.

Sure they got dev-knowledge, that's obvious. You can't create a game of that size which is still working (working, not flourishing) without intensive knowledge.

That doesn't mean all their decisions are great or even 'good'.

With the same line of thought Synthesis shouldn't have failed. Nonetheless they missed that overcomplicating stuff on a great basis (and yes, the base-idea is fantastic and a great solution for many issues existing in the game) would cause a massive backlash. A scaling-mechanic to only allow specific fractured mods to drop would've taken care of it, as well as a mechanic to limit the potential outcomes as the used items are better. (Besides the base-weighting the system uses, which isn't enough for such a large mechanic).

Also by the same reasoning Blight should've been released in a FAR better state. The issues they ran into were WELL KNOWN since YEARS. Nonetheless they released a league which takes summoners (high-load builds) and poison Assassins (also extremely high-load builds) as meta and threw them into blighted maps (too many mobs for the nodes to handle with the interactions) to then crash out of the instance (which was also known to happen with the interactions before).

Yes, they obviously know 100% what they're doing and can't fail here.
Sorry to burst your bubble... but GGG is just another company which has grown large, some people - and not necessarily the ones with the most competence - call the shots and that stuff then is done. Many of the existing issues have been OBVIOUS for some people since a long time, nonetheless they showcased them openly.

The same goes for trading. Trading can have so many different iterations, adjusting it each league a bit into another direction and watching how the market behaves is a viable solution without utterly destroying it. Is it done? Nope... it isn't.
Have they adjusted their system since they made it? Nope, they didn't.
Do their own mechanics stand up to the amount of queries they have to process with the current player-count? No, they don't.
Does this mean adjustments are necessary? Yes, that's the case.
Is it 100% clear what sort of adjustments are the best? No, but that's where testing comes into play.

Obviously keeping the status quo is detrimental in the current situation, hence GGG has to take action. They don't which means they are stalling the growth (or retention of the status quo) of the game with it.

But well... shit's on fire but people don't acknowledge it, they have so much goodwill from some people that even with the amount of chaos happening they're still defended. So I'll say it with a nice meme: I'm not even mad, that's amazing.
Sadly not a proper solution though.

I for one am glad one of you forum warriors isn't designing this game. Sure, there is room for improvement, but limitations on trading in this game?

Sometimes I wonder if you guys actually play this game.

And then all the things made up from thin air, no wonder GGG ignores this forum.

if only there would be a somehow automated trading-system for maps and currency. this would stop so much frustration about that basically non-existent trading-system we have to deal right now

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Kulze wrote:

Sure they got dev-knowledge, that's obvious. You can't create a game of that size which is still working (working, not flourishing) without intensive knowledge.

That's why I replied to your quote because it sounded like you were saying they don't have any game dev knowledge, that's simply not true.

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Kulze wrote:

Automation is not an instant reason for de-valuation.
Instant gratification isn't existing in my suggestions of a proper Auction. (So that part alone is already wrong)

IMO, once you start automating the ability to buy items, it inherently devalues that item because it takes less time to obtain that item. You can't notice this phenomena instantly, but over time you will.

An AH inherently is instant gratification. You literally buy an item and it's inserted into your inventory with a couple clicks. That's pretty instant