SNEAKY, CONNIVING, SHAMELESS ZOMBIE KILLERS !!!

Doomsayers, doomsayers everywhere.

I, for one, will enjoy experimenting with the new Necro. Also regarding zombies, I've always only seen them as meat shields. And now with an actual Meat Shield support, they can finally complete that role. I've been a specter fan from the start, and that ain't changing.

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Bretherezenx wrote:

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Their AI is better, big whoop. Their clearspeed is still going to be complete ass because

Zombie clear speed is limited by movement speed not slam cooldown, i'm not gonna bother going through your napkin maths as you have no idea what the buffed zombie stats are nor can you properly rejig a tree at this stage.

Even with 200 ex of gear all you need to know is you'll be able to get zombies in the 30's for gem level (which correspondingly lowers their slam cooldown also) accuracy capping is trivial, opportunity cost of life is way lower, far more damage sources etc

Like the fact you say AI change big whoop throws a huge question mark over whether you've ever actually played a fucking summoner, if zombies behaved like SRS instead of being cursor guided their clear speed would go through the roof regardless of slam.

I'll be genuinely surprised if a high investment summoners zombies aren't doing twice the dps they currently do by mid league.

Edit: and don't bring up skeletons we are talking about zombies here as soon as you get into X clears faster you may as well just solar guard everything and call it a day (or actually play a clear build) it really isn't relevant. This is about a "supposed" gutting of zombies, not how they fare vs other gems. You may as well go say skeletons are ruined because they lost free hits cannot be evaded (heres a hint, they are going to do more dps , clear faster, tank more this patch too)

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Draegnarrr wrote:

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Bretherezenx wrote:

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Their AI is better, big whoop. Their clearspeed is still going to be complete ass because

Zombie clear speed is limited by movement speed not slam cooldown, i'm not gonna bother going through your napkin maths as you have no idea what the buffed zombie stats are nor can you properly rejig a tree at this stage.

Even with 200 ex of gear all you need to know is you'll be able to get zombies in the 30's for gem level (which correspondingly lowers their slam cooldown also) accuracy capping is trivial, opportunity cost of life is way lower, far more damage sources etc

Like the fact you say AI change big whoop throws a huge question mark over whether you've ever actually played a fucking summoner, if zombies behaved like SRS instead of being cursor guided their clear speed would go through the roof regardless of slam.

I'll be genuinely surprised if a high investment summoners zombies aren't doing twice the dps they currently do by mid league.

Edit: and don't bring up skeletons we are talking about zombies here as soon as you get into X clears faster you may as well just solar guard everything and call it a day (or actually play a clear build) it really isn't relevant.

PoB has been updated, and the tree is updated accordingly. I already have looked over everything near my desired path and not too far away from it, and accordingly allocated my points based on a level 100 character, down to level 90 character. So, yes, I can properly re-engineer my pathing, as it requires no actual deviation with the Blight's passive tree.

And no, it does not correspondingly lower their cooldown. So far it clearly states that it ends at 76% cooldown recovery speed. And unless it was a mishap on GGG's part, it does not say, like other abilities in the Patch Notes, that it can be raised via additional gem levels. On that note, i've already accounted for the maximum possible Zombie level my build will permit, and based on the Minion Wands and the stats that were displayed, calculated that as well. The only thing I am missing here is additional Minion Wand information, gem changes/ new gems, and the inclusion of Carrion Golems.

And yes, a lot of downtime can be spent moving from mob-to-mob, however, you're an idiot. I am sorry, but you are:

In the showcased video, Zombies were moving at a speed of at least 2x movement speed compared to pre-Blight meta. That is insanely fast movement speed for a Zombie, and it means they will comparatively spend that much less time between each pack of mobs. Supposing, as you say, that they will be cleared all that much faster, the first mob pack that you clear is going to go smoothly. Then, the second mob pack and every mob pack there-after is going to feel like an absolute slog because they are spending even less time traveling between minion packs. How the hell do you not recognize this? You are visibly going to notice your Zombies are Slamming a helluva lot less, and you think this is a buff to Zombie clear speed????????

And sorry, but before you even mention it: Their basic attacks "cleaving" in front of their face is not a viable replacement for Slam AoE clearing.

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Draegnarrr wrote:

Pretty sure I know more about summoners than every person whining about this change combined, if you think Zombies are nerfed you are a moron, if you play dedicated zombies you should be even happier your gaining practically invincible zombies, a massive damage increase and you get to save 2 jewel slots for a previously mandatory unique as well as adjusting their AI.

Zombies are going to be broken as fuck this league, if you want to quit because you can't see the forest for the trees then go ahead but don't try and pretend you have the tiniest clue what you are actually talking about.

We already had invincible zombies outside of delve. The zombie durability problem was solved several major patches ago when we could make 40 - 50k hp zombies

As for the massive damage increase.. this is also debatable considering how much more damage the slam did over the basic attack. There is a reason why zombie builds were purposefully caping how much attack speed they put on their zombies afterall.

You don't jump through hoops like that if it was not worth it.

As for *saving* two jewel slots... we are not saving any jewel slots. We are simply losing the option too use the two jewels.

At best we might receive parity with the single necromancer node if we assume each level gives 3 -4% cool down recovery. So around 100% of the 300% we are losing.

We should also consider that the new AI has its own cost seeing as the wording from the notes makes it sound like its a conditional more multi that is not always on. And these ai gems WILL be replacing an existing good gem.

be it minion damage, empower , melee physical, maim, minion speed .. or now melee splash.


It is kind of arrogant to say you know more about summoners. More than a few of the people concerned about this change have made a summoner nearly every league for the last 6 years.

How much more "experience" do we need to meet your lofty and undefined expectations?

Put melee splash on them and laugh? You've got a (wrong btw, pob is updated with the tree nothing else) tree with 17 zombies that splash for 400k and you somehow assume they will all slam straight away and then all run around for 3s until its back up.

the new maximum for gem level alone is worth a link, you could run 5l zombies with splash and they will do more damage, faster and tankier than 3.7

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

How much more "experience" do we need to meet your lofty and undefined expectations?

You need the experience to go in PoB and press + on the zombie level until its in the 30's then imagine that with 100% free minion speed.

I've played necros for years, If you look at all the new nodes, passives, gems and baseline buffs and come out with the result of zombies are nerfed because slam then you're either ignoring your experience or have no idea how to actually apply the numbers we are being shown to the game.

Nor are my expectations lofty, I know far less about summons than many players but if you reach the conclusion that zombies are worse then you clearly know nothing about summons so it isn't hard to know more than that ;)

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Draegnarrr wrote:

Put melee splash on them and laugh? You've got a (wrong btw, pob is updated with the tree nothing else) tree with 17 zombies that splash for 400k and you somehow assume they will all slam straight away and then all run around for 3s until its back up.

the new maximum for gem level alone is worth a link, you could run 5l zombies with splash and they will do more damage, faster and tankier than 3.7

I was really going to type out something long and convoluted, but the gist of the post was this:

Zombies do not possess phasing mechanics, and they body-block other minions. One Zombie will at-most Slam every-other pack of mobs. Yes, you will likely have Zombies left over that did not spend their Slam, but with the radically improved minion movement speed that Zombies have in their showcased, you will be hardpressed to find many that did not make it in to melee range to spend their Slam.

This boils down to the fact that there will be fewer Slams going around for clearing mob packs.

Also, sorry, but I play on console. Switching gems on a dime is a massive chore to do per map, and for a boss, far moreso than the PC ever has.

And as stated before, there is explicit reasoning behind min-maxing around Slam.

You don't have to swap gem, they will do more damage if you leave minion splash in than they currently do on a 6l once you've picked up the new gear

Minions were already doing so much dmg you would pretty much swap gems only for Guardians and end-game bosses.

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Draegnarrr wrote:

I've played necros for years, If you look at all the new nodes, passives, gems and baseline buffs and come out with the result of zombies are nerfed because slam then you're either ignoring your experience or have no idea how to actually apply the numbers we are being shown to the game.

Nor are my expectations lofty, I know far less about summons than many players but if you reach the conclusion that zombies are worse then you clearly know nothing about summons so it isn't hard to know more than that ;)

[Removed by Support] Go read my post and read everything else I have said about Zombies, or shut up.

This is still a nerf to Zombies' clear speed.

Their bossing potential is literally not, and never has been, an issue at all. Never has been. Still won't be.

This is, in fact, a mapping clear speed nerf.

If you have to substitute a gem in to your build, sacrificing damage, for clear speed: It's a nerf.

if you no longer have the same viable clear speed because of the removal of essential items, gems, passive nodes, etc: It's a nerf.

Do I need to continue? Do you need even further elaboration?

All of this is made entirely moot, and i'll completely rescind everything i've said, if the stats of the Violent Dead jewels are explicitly stated to have been added to the Zombie's skill gem. If not, however: IT'S A NERF.

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Draegnarrr wrote:

You don't have to swap gem, they will do more damage if you leave minion splash in than they currently do on a 6l once you've picked up the new gear

Damage is not an issue! It never was! Open your ears.

Like toning it down a bit i'm not even arguing that slam won't be worse assuming the base cooldowns still 5s but this is not zombies being utterly destroyed. The hyperbole about how a slightly delay increase on slam ruins zombies is ridiculous in the face of how many buffs they are getting.