Oni-Goroshi drop rate is ridiculous.

Well english is not my native language and im a self learner so sometimes i make such mistakes. My bad then, no hard feelings.
Regards and take care.

"

de99ial wrote:

Well english is not my native language and im a self learner so sometimes i make such mistakes. My bad then, no hard feelings.
Regards and take care.

None taken.

I'm sure I make plenty of mistakes when not writing in English.

Edit:

On-topic (because that is more interesting than this derailment we created):

The grind associated with acquiring an OG does indeed seem to be, by design, a grind which is qualitatively different from ordinary in-game grinds.

And therein lies my main criticism. You know that South Park WoW meme where Cartman is shitting into a box held by his mom so he can continue to kill lvl-1 rabbits over and over again and not have to take a break to walk to the toilet? (I'd post a link, but the last time I did so the post got deleted by an overzealous mod, so you'll have to Google it yourself.)

That is (obviously) a thinly veiled criticism of addictive mechanics in such games which sidestep the presence/absence of fun. "Endure a shitty experience to become more powerful" is the long and the short of it. "Being powerful is fun! Even if the process of getting there is not fun."

This is a very particular game design paradigm which I will unqualifiedly shit upon with every piece of feces that I can squeeze out of my rectum. It is disgraceful to exploit human addictive mechanics in order to compel them to do things they don't enjoy doing, to the benefit ($$$) of your own game.

This seems like no less than GGG trolling players who are willing to waste time for power. (And not even that much power.)

Thats not true. As someone who wasnt so hyped but eventually tested it and then repeated this experience and also shared thoughts i will tell You this - that decision was made for one puropuse, to keep players, or at least some of them, at the begining of the game. Thats that. Whole conditions for farming this item were made because that goal. And it worked. Also OG experience is one of a kind. Yeah grind can be hard but You decide how much time You invest but if You keep it the drop is guaranteed. It will take less or more time but after You find Her and go throught game with Her then something changes.

Either You experieced it and understand or didnt.

And buing OG dont count.

"

de99ial wrote:

Thats not true. As someone who wasnt so hyped but eventually tested it and then repeated this experience and also shared thoughts i will tell You this - that decision was made for one puropuse, to keep players, or at least some of them, at the begining of the game. Thats that. Whole conditions for farming this item were made because that goal. And it worked. Also OG experience is one of a kind. Yeah grind can be hard but You decide how much time You invest but if You keep it the drop is guaranteed. It will take less or more time but after You find Her and go throught game with Her then something changes.

Either You experieced it and understand or didnt.

And buing OG dont count.

I haven't tried farming the cards yet but I have self-farmed an OG in SSF during Synthesis league. I can confirm that it's an arduous task, but having OG to play the story is quite an experience.

I don't think the design idea is to keep some players at the start of the game. It's a heavy limitation that's rewarding for those who want to use it, and difficult enough to not make it worth farming for those who just want to sell it.

Its what Charan said. If he'd not deleted all his posts maby it could be veryfied but well...

Also OG farm is about reaching goals, enduring something not very pleasnt to get something. And that something also serves its purpouse. Its kinda like in life. Test to the Self.

As a "casual n00b hoarder" - yes, yes, I play PoE casually even though I farmed enough EXP to level TWICE to 100 until now on my main ^^ - I have a few (around 8 Onis at hand, at least 1 in SSF) and I must attest, farming Oni is the most relaxing experience I have ever had in PoE...

Sure, if next time I will try that (I farmed the last 2 post the drop rate reduction) I encounter Uber Hillock before level 7 so he's not a total pushover, I'll be delighted, but until then, farming Oni for me was simply a task that let me focus on my inner Zen - I farmed at least the last 4 on 1 sole character at a time, and dropped them all above level 8... It was simply the most chill experience in PoE, have a few runs, go for full clear or simply try to rush Hillock and level, and drop interesting new leveling uniques...

The only recommendation I would make, would be for the drops to be a bit more interesting, and maybe as long as the game acknowledges your character not entering the Lioneye's Watch and only grinding Twilight Strand, it can also go into a higher difficulty - add small % HP and damage buffs, heck, even a small EXP boost to keep the same EXP/h gain as now, to Twilight Strand content for every character level and increase the chance to meet Uber Hillock from level 5, until it's GUARANTEED for level 11 for example, make it an "achievement", and lock said epic item behind a sensible increase in a proper grind - a moderate increase in difficulty that would keep you awake would be welcomed as that experience makes PoE feel a FUN ARPG...

The OG grind is definitely different. Gibbousmoon makes a good point that I've come to expect in Gibbousmoon posts.

I've farmed three OG's. So, I obviously do find something attractive in it besides the OG loot at the end. I found it relaxing. Almost like a meditation session. It was fun to drink as many alcohol beverages I wanted along the way, as another plus.

I may farm some more but the best part was playing through a character from level 1 into end game with an Oni-Goroshi. I found that the most fun ever in PoE. If you don't want to do the sand beating grind, I still highly recommend the experience of leveling a character into end game with an OG.

"

de99ial wrote:

Thats not true.

What's not true? That pounding sand is a grind?

Or that it is a grind which is qualitatively different from grinding, say, 1000 orbs of fusing while playing the regular game?

"

As someone who wasnt so hyped but eventually tested it and then repeated this experience and also shared thoughts i will tell You this - that decision was made for one puropuse, to keep players, or at least some of them, at the begining of the game. Thats that.

I don't recall ever reading anything like this, neither on the forums nor in private conversations with Charan. Who told you this?

The grind was his idea, and though I'm not a fan, it's not unusual for him and me to disagree on stuff. One thing we do agree upon is that the experience would be superior if Hillock were able to appear from an earlier level (level 2 or 3); i.e., at a level where he would wreck your shit and you'd have no chance in hell of defeating him.

What would be the point of that? Well, for one, the entire exercise would feel far less contrived and artificial. Two, it would make the experience of encountering him the second (or third, or fourth) time and finally being able to beat him that much more intrinsically rewarding.

"

Whole conditions for farming this item were made because that goal. And it worked. Also OG experience is one of a kind. Yeah grind can be hard but You decide how much time You invest but if You keep it the drop is guaranteed. It will take less or more time but after You find Her and go throught game with Her then something changes.

Either You experieced it and understand or didnt.

And buing OG dont count.

Well, it's reasonable to assume that I wouldn't be commenting on the process if I hadn't personally experienced it. (And yes, I subsequently played through the entire base game with that character, though I didn't bother to take her to level 90 to hear that particular bit of VA.)

I've dug through an old conversation between us and pulled out something that may be of interest to you guys.

tldr: We see things differently.

***

G: Is it good to give an extrinsic reward for enduring intrinsically unrewarding (for most people) gameplay? Some would say yes, and some would say no. And it is the answer to that question that determines the merit of the design.

C: I think if you're going to apply those terms, you're sort of holding a vast chunk of PoE in contempt.
in a glibly legal sense.

[...less interesting stuff...]

G: I don't agree (contempt comment). I wouldn't play PoE if the process per se were not fun.

C: intrinsically unrewarding is a damn fine way of describing PoE's gameplay loop.
were it not, you wouldn't need these meta shakeups and these ridiculous power-leaps.

G: That is a highly subjective statement. Also, "pounding sand between L2 and 6 is not fun" is a highly subjective statement. But I think far more people will accept the latter than the former.

C: if the ultimate motivation for playing is 'what's in it for me' and me here means 'my character', then the gameplay sucks.
Extrinsic reward.
guaranteed.
so there's the thing right? guaranteed reward for pounding the sand for 10-12 hours...versus the gamble of mapping.
I am not immune to the pull of gambling but only if pulling the lever is easy.
PoE makes it a chore.
there is no real gamble in Goddess grinding. Just time invested. It's a blatant acknowledgment that the game is basically work for regular players.

[...more uninteresting stuff, and some vaguely related discussion of another game...]

G: Goddess farming also involves contingency (determistic contingency, at that), but largely removes contiguity. That's where I have a problem with it.

C: but let me clarify that what I think we were sold on with PoE in the early days, being a meaty ARPG with lots of different ways of playing, was outpaced by a more primal intrinsic loop, being the gamble of drops sustained by a relatively narrow range of ways of playing. In the absence of that, i wanted to give players a time sink with an absolute reward.

[...Further discussion on the nature of contiguity and its relationship to game design as such...]

C: The goddess grind was my invitation to others to experience PoE as I do. [He is talking about Ledge grinding in early days.]
I was genuinely blown away by how many took that invitation, but I guess the reward was a little too good.

***

So, that's how he sees the experience. My view has more in common with that of Soren Johnson, of Designer Notes:

"Many players cannot help approaching a game as an optimization puzzle. Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."

That is to say, extrinsic rewards will always trump fun (i.e. intrinsically rewarding gameplay) in a game of this nature. It is the game designer's function to anticipate and account for this.

The Oni Goroshi grind represents a failure to do so.

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

I don't recall ever reading anything like this, neither on the forums nor in private conversations with Charan. Who told you this?

It was at the beginning of introducing OG to game in old Godess thread or in thread that was focused on OG but not about farming it. Charan wrote that explaining a lot about how OG was created, what in mind he had and what changes GGG made despite his preferences, etc. Two years now? More?

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

The grind was his idea, and though I'm not a fan, it's not unusual for him and me to disagree on stuff. One thing we do agree upon is that the experience would be superior if Hillock were able to appear from an earlier level (level 2 or 3); i.e., at a level where he would wreck your shit and you'd have no chance in hell of defeating him.

It wouldn be. One of players met UH on lvl5 and did not managed to kill him he was just to strong for current situation. So i prefer later UH spawn with real chance for killing him instead wasting a farmer. Because if UH would show on lvl 2 or 3 or even 5 then it would be not killabe and because he already spammed i would need to create new farmer and all that time would be wasted. So as far as i know there is a very, very tiny chance for UH to spawn earlier than on lvl7 but im glad that this chance is so small.

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

What would be the point of that? Well, for one, the entire exercise would feel far less contrived and artificial. Two, it would make the experience of encountering him the second (or third, or fourth) time and finally being able to beat him that much more intrinsically rewarding.

You need to decide if You ask questions or You just seek excuse to share opinion. I dont really like ppl who ask question and then give answer to it. Its... Not smart.

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

The Oni Goroshi grind represents a failure to do so.

And yet there are ppl who still reach for it and enjoys it despite Your opinion. Deal with it, just that because we farmers dont care about Your opinion obviously and we dont care about how "bad" this grind is.

PS. Not true part was about Your opinions that You present as "truth" or as something that "all agree". Its not. All You write here is just an opinion.

"

de99ial wrote:

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

I don't recall ever reading anything like this, neither on the forums nor in private conversations with Charan. Who told you this?

It was at the beginning of introducing OG to game in old Godess thread or in thread that was focused on OG but not about farming it. Charan wrote that explaining a lot about how OG was created, what in mind he had and what changes GGG made despite his preferences, etc. Two years now? More?

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

The grind was his idea, and though I'm not a fan, it's not unusual for him and me to disagree on stuff. One thing we do agree upon is that the experience would be superior if Hillock were able to appear from an earlier level (level 2 or 3); i.e., at a level where he would wreck your shit and you'd have no chance in hell of defeating him.

It wouldn be. One of players met UH on lvl5 and did not managed to kill him he was just to strong for current situation. So i prefer later UH spawn with real chance for killing him instead wasting a farmer. Because if UH would show on lvl 2 or 3 or even 5 then it would be not killabe and because he already spammed i would need to create new farmer and all that time would be wasted. So as far as i know there is a very, very tiny chance for UH to spawn earlier than on lvl7 but im glad that this chance is so small.

You are welcome to disagree with me and Charan both, but I do wonder:

Upon what basis do you assert that a single Hillock spawn prevents future Hillock spawns?

"

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

What would be the point of that? Well, for one, the entire exercise would feel far less contrived and artificial. Two, it would make the experience of encountering him the second (or third, or fourth) time and finally being able to beat him that much more intrinsically rewarding.

You need to decide if You ask questions or You just seek excuse to share opinion. I dont really like ppl who ask question and then give answer to it. Its... Not smart.

Oh for fuck's sake. You are being ridiculous.

Why do I feel this way? Because you are ridiculing a perfectly ordinary way of writing.

See what I did there? Yes, I illustrated the ordinary way of writing you ridicule.

Did you notice that I did it twice? I hope so.

That's three times. Are you annoyed yet?

"

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

The Oni Goroshi grind represents a failure to do so.

And yet there are ppl who still reach for it and enjoys it despite Your opinion. Deal with it, just that because we farmers dont care about Your opinion obviously and we dont care about how "bad" this grind is.

PS. Not true part was about Your opinions that You present as "truth" or as something that "all agree". Its not. All You write here is just an opinion.

Who else's opinion would it be if not that of the person who wrote it?

Without statements like yours, memes like this would not even exist:



Think about it.