Elemental and Physical Reflect Maps

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Sixtysan wrote:

You can't really counter no life regen mod with life flasks. You certainly can mana with mana flasks (as long as you are not using it as the main source of defence (MOM), but life regen is not only one of the basic defences, but it's kinda vital to some builds. For example, I'm using golden rule to get chaos res against chaos damage (which runs rampant this league). Without the jewel, I'm at -40 chaos res. Same with endurance changes. Let's be fair, high tier Monolith is bullshit and few auras are enough to rip even build like mine with no problem. The idea of regeneration is a fact, that it starts instantly without interaction. I chose this as a mechanic to counter the awful performance when you get freezes/stutter and can't really utilize leech. And this is just HP. How do you counter no ES regen? There aren't any ES flasks and if you are not building for recharge, it won't help at all. And EB? They are fucked completely :D

those new timeless jewels, one have a keystone that give the possibility for life flasks to apply on es.

I still don t know why people feel forced to run any mods they don t like anyway. IT was the same stupid thing with leo and players complaining they were forced to grind him because of their own ocd.

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Head_Less wrote:

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Sixtysan wrote:

You can't really counter no life regen mod with life flasks. You certainly can mana with mana flasks (as long as you are not using it as the main source of defence (MOM), but life regen is not only one of the basic defences, but it's kinda vital to some builds. For example, I'm using golden rule to get chaos res against chaos damage (which runs rampant this league). Without the jewel, I'm at -40 chaos res. Same with endurance changes. Let's be fair, high tier Monolith is bullshit and few auras are enough to rip even build like mine with no problem. The idea of regeneration is a fact, that it starts instantly without interaction. I chose this as a mechanic to counter the awful performance when you get freezes/stutter and can't really utilize leech. And this is just HP. How do you counter no ES regen? There aren't any ES flasks and if you are not building for recharge, it won't help at all. And EB? They are fucked completely :D

those new timeless jewels, one have a keystone that give the possibility for life flasks to apply on es.

I still don t know why people feel forced to run any mods they don t like anyway. IT was the same stupid thing with leo and players complaining they were forced to grind him because of their own ocd.

It's not really about "any mod" but when you have 8 mod corrupted T16 and you see that fucker no regen pop up in your trade macro, it pisses you off, especially since they are now like 25c each.

but once again corrupting a map is supposed to be challenging else why not just having rare maps already drop corrupted with 100+ iq if all mods are made easy to each builds.

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Head_Less wrote:

running unid maps give you higher bonuses and as such are supposed to be dangerous. If you run unid maps and complain you hit reflect and killed yourself maybe just don t be greedy and don t run them unid.

After all that has been said, it's hard to think that you would genuinely still not be getting it lol, it really is, pardon myself if I have a hard time thinking that you're not just plain trolling at this point.

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karoollll2534 wrote:

-max res, armour or cannot regen life is example of risk vs reward.
Reflect is either you play dot / 100% immune or you die. This is not risk vs reward, this is example of guaranteed death.

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Fruz wrote:

So .... let's see about the CHOICES that the game gives us :
- play something that is affected by reflect and get fucked eventually, not being able to run all map mods
- play traps and faceroll everything, grossly cheezing most bosses in the game too
- play Elementalist/Slayer, ignore reflect, be able to run all map mods.

What are the pros of the first choice .... HMMM ... LET'S SEE ........
HHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMM

right, jack shit
This isn't balance, this is a mod that has nothing to do with the game anymore, it brings nothing and punishes many builds for absolutely no freaking reason, that's all there is to it.

I guess if there was a mod "Witches take 5000% increased damage" and the equivalent for all other classes, you would call it "dangerous" and fitting in this game, it would be amazing game design, wouldn't it ?
/s

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Head_Less wrote:

IT was the same stupid thing with leo and players complaining they were forced to grind him because of their own ocd.

Are you actually aware that Leo had mods that were useful for some builds in PvE ? VERY useful for some builds ?
Can you restrain from talking about things that you don't know maybe ?

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Fruz wrote:

Are you actually aware that Leo had mods that were useful for some builds in PvE ? VERY useful for some builds ?
Can you restrain from talking about things that you don't know maybe ?

we already debated about it and I won t change position. Since leo overtime damage was nerfed nothing in there was was build defining or necessary.

Now just explain me why you feel the need to run those reflect mods or why having them pop in your map pool is a problem.

Why can t you reroll or simply get another corrupted map if you need a challenge .

I posted quite a few times in this thread defending reflect staying in the game, Many good arguments have been brought and in the end i had to relent as sadly if Power Creep is not going to change 1 of 2 things needs to happen.

1: reflect needs to be re-designed to not literally be INSTANTLY fatal while still being something that needs to be worked into a build without requiring an insane investment

or

2: reflect needs to simply go

I really would not like to see our map modifiers get reduced more or the game be too easy for any build but if you are on a reflect immune build what are your negative map mods? monster physical/elemental resistance? because that purely slows things down.

As much as i'd like to argue otherwise it simply is not fair, /shrug.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

I posted quite a few times in this thread defending reflect staying in the game, Many good arguments have been brought and in the end i had to relent as sadly if Power Creep is not going to change 1 of 2 things needs to happen.

1: reflect needs to be re-designed to not literally be INSTANTLY fatal while still being something that needs to be worked into a build without requiring an insane investment

or

2: reflect needs to simply go

I really would not like to see our map modifiers get reduced more or the game be too easy for any build but if you are on a reflect immune build what are your negative map mods? monster physical/elemental resistance? because that purely slows things down.

As much as i'd like to argue otherwise it simply is not fair, /shrug.

I always greatly enjoy mapping on characters that can deal with all, or most at least, mods and do not care about reflect. ED/Contagion is on my list of starter builds that can run any mods as long as you run it as Trickster. I often started past leagues on my AW Chieftan, which eventually became immune to any reflect damage by converting all damage to fire and totems being immune to fire.

Ultimately, map mods are due some revision to make them more interesting. Map sustain was for a long time reason to run "difficult" maps but that is largely thing of the past. Current game has significantly more sources of maps than the original. Challenge league content often, and correctly, also provide direct or indirect benefit for map progression--this is critical as it makes no sense to engage in one type of content, challenge league, but not getting any progress in the other content, maps.

Map mod should modify the way a map plays rather than restric players in what map they can run. Map mods should bring new interesting mechanics rather than just tweak base number up or down.

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Head_Less wrote:

we already debated about it and I won t change position. Since leo overtime damage was nerfed nothing in there was was build defining or necessary.

No master mod is ever completely necessary.
Which does not mean that some should be gated by PvP, it was stupid to have Leo gate a mod that had impact on PvE seriously, people wanting to play RF were justified to not like it.

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Head_Less wrote:

Now just explain me why you feel the need to run those reflect mods or why having them pop in your map pool is a problem.

Why can t you reroll or simply get another corrupted map if you need a challenge .

Gosh, I already said it several time, seriously, and one of the reason was in my the post right before yours.
It is partly invalidating half (if not more) of the archetype by putting them at a disadvantage for not actual reason.

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Fruz wrote:

It would allow more build diversity as people ( especially in HC ) would not be "wait ... reflect ... maybe not then" when creating a character, it would allow having more fun as you can run unid maps and wonder what mods you're going to be dealing with without the possibility of killing yourself instantly.
Yeah, I like being .... hmmm .. "what am I dealing with here ... oh, it looks like I got that one this time", etc ...
Can't do that with a non reflect immune build, no you can't.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

reflect needs to be re-designed to not literally be INSTANTLY fatal while still being something that needs to be worked into a build without requiring an insane investment

Unfortunately, I don't think that GGG is capable of that, the game has grown too much out of control for it.
But I would be all up for such a solution if they could find one.

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Fruz wrote:

... does it have anything to do with your agenda maybe ?

I'm really curious: What agenda could that possibly be? I just don't want the game dumbed down unnecessarily if there are other options. And I said so repeatedly.

You on the other hand have the clear (also open, not secret) agenda: "This map mod be too evil for me, remoof itttt! No likey road block to me zoom-zoom stylez". Something you normally mock in other people's threads. Didn't expect that at all...

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SilentSymphony wrote:

if Power Creep is not going to change 1 of 2 things needs to happen.

1: reflect needs to be re-designed to not literally be INSTANTLY fatal while still being something that needs to be worked into a build without requiring an insane investment

or

2: reflect needs to simply go

If possible at all, I'd very much prefer the first option, honestly. Way back, when I didn't have any clue and my DPS was dismal, interacting with reflect was actually engaging. I'd take severe damage and notice "Oh crap, this must be a reflect map!" even if the map was unidentified. Then I'd kite enemies, eyeball the range / AoE of my skills and try not to hit too many monsters at once. I didn't make it far into the endgame, but reflect was... actually interesting.

Sometimes it was really tight, especially coupled with mods that affect your defences - vulnerability, elemental weakness, reduced block/dodge... And occasionally I'd die. C'est la vie. The experience was still more in line with other risk/reward mechanisms, even if I imagine my defences back then must have been awful.

These days, however, pretty much anything that involves more than one or two white monsters can be instant death. On unidentified maps, pretty much any mod is survivable at least long enough until you get an idea of what it is so you can adapt. Reflect? Chances are your first mouse click on an enemy will kill you immediately.

I might add that I'm a really mediocre player, playing my mediocre self-made builds with really mediocre gear (SSF), never had a six-link and therefore - coupled with my mediocre skill and me not using tools for min-maxing - only do really mediocre DPS. Nobody can accuse me of playing stupidly overpowerd "zoom-zoom" cookie cutter meta builds. Even if I play a skill that suddenly gets buffed, you can trust that my chars will be rather sub-par in the damage department compared to what others squeeze out of that skill with PoB and their traded elite gear!

Obviously, my defences will be mediocre as well, but at least they are enough to get me through pretty much all tight spots I've encountered so far (or enemies will eventually overwhelm me, or I goof up myself), but jumping into a mob on a tier 5 Refect map can insta-kill me.

Lowering your DPS to compensate is much clunkier than compensating using kiting (which actually requires some skill and interaction!), relying more heavily on your flasks, or being extra careful with particular damage types (physical / elemental / projectiles) that just got more dangerous.

To make matters worse, maps used to have regular mobs and the boss. Now you can run into a red beast with extremely high HP and/or regen compared to the normal stuff you encounter, or you can even be ambushed by a Syndicate intervention. Oh, the joy of doing this with extremely low DPS!

Let's not forget Incursions, either, that didn't exist back then when Reflect was introduced. Incursions inherit the map mods, and since you are forced to kill fast there (in fact, many rooms are designed such that you can't help it!), you can only lose: either you die to reflect, or you get overwhelmed because your DPS is too low.
It's the same thing with breaches, really.

Plus, don't most melee skills have an inherent AoE now so you hit more enemies than before even with "Strike" skills that used to be strictly single-target?

All this stuff didn't exist way back, so I'd say it's in order to re-evaluate Reflect in light of the completely changed overall situation.