I need an automated trading mechanic to enjoy this game again

"

Xavathos wrote:

"

Cyzax wrote:

The problem is this...

- The majority of PoE players doesn't trade, only a minority does
- Ease of access to items (including currency and maps) largely define the difficulty of the game
- GGG has an aim that higher content should be difficult

Take those together, and add easy trading of consumable, and GGG would have to lower drop rates for them to maintain the difficulty for trading players. Doing that however would make the game impossible for the non-trading majority.

Summa summārum: PoE can't have an automated trading system, even for consumables.

This. x10^100

/everythreadeverywrittenonthistopic

In fact, when you try to create a thread requesting AH, you should get a message stating:
Unable to create thread. Error 404 - Design choice not found.
Please view Cyzax's post history for more information.

And i believe every player, who defends current trading system, is either a scammer, flipper or bot user. And those shouldnt be able to express their "opinion" at all, cause it does no good to the game...
But we live in a free world, where everyone has the right to express their opinion. If players create topics asking for AH every day, it means that's what they actually want. And any decent game developer should listen to its players. If GGG doesnt - well, it's worse for them! Just like president, who doesnt listen to his voters, or merchant, whodoesnt listen tohis customers, they wont last long.

"

MortalKombat3 wrote:

And i believe every player, who defends current trading system, is either a scammer, flipper or bot user. And those shouldnt be able to express their "opinion" at all, cause it does no good to the game...
But we live in a free world, where everyone has the right to express their opinion. If players create topics asking for AH every day, it means that's what they actually want. And any decent game developer should listen to its players. If GGG doesnt - well, it's worse for them! Just like president, who doesnt listen to his voters, or merchant, whodoesnt listen tohis customers, they wont last long.

Well, aren't you a ray of sunshine! :D

Tiny problem I see with your assessment; it's a baseless assumption. You're free to believe what you want to believe, of course, but here's some facts for you:

1. Every player, who defends current trading system, is either a scammer, flipper or bot user.

Nope, nope and... nope. Just from my own personal experience, I can debunk that already. Even if I was the only exception to the rule, you're objectively wrong there. Not every player opposed to an auction house is one of those things.

2. Those shouldnt be able to express their "opinion" at all, cause it does no good to the game...

Ah! Of course. And am I to assume your opinion is good for the game, Your Majesty/Emperor/Master Chief/Grand Wizard? No wonder there are people who think the game sucks, it's because I'm still talking! Whoops! Sorry guys. Turns out it was all my fault. I DIDN'T KNOWWW! T_T

3. If players create topics asking for AH every day, it means that's what they actually want.

I would imagine so? I mean, if they wanted coffee, asking for an AH may not be the best idea. That said, asking for an AH may not be the best idea either and that's why we have this wonderful thing called open discussions! Everyone's invited, but bring your own bump.

4. Any decent game developer should listen to its players. If GGG doesnt - well, it's worse for them!

I agree wholeheartedly. A developer of any kind should always be in tune with their user base. They are, after all, the reason they (still) exist. However, the opposite is also true. You see, when you're a developer with a certain knowledge and skillset, working in house at a company that has access to all the vital analytic data and tools, you are capable of things that a user wouldn't even be able to imagine in their wildest dreams. You could predict the future! Or at least, that's how it may seem to us.

While player feedback is vital, one should never forget their "place". Ultimately leave the professional decisions to the professionals. Trust that they know what's best and sometimes that means making peace with a design choice that may not be in line with your ideals. You're the end-user, so you have significance, but you can't please everyone. A good developer knows this as well.

Step out of line, you start demanding things, based on your personal bias, a bunch of assumptions, perhaps sprinkled with some prejudice and you end up with... well, your post, for example.

5. Just like president, who doesnt listen to his voters, or merchant, whodoesnt listen tohis customers, they wont last long.

Say what? A president doesn't listen to his voters, that would be reverse democracy! A president is voted for on the basis of his/her political agenda, by the people, to do his/her thing for the people. To quote our dearest friend Izaro: "It the sovereign who empowers the sceptre, not the other way round."

"

MortalKombat3 wrote:

And i believe every player, who defends current trading system, is either a scammer, flipper or bot user.
long.

another over generalization with no base of logic or facts...

"

But we live in a free world, where everyone has the right to express their opinion. If players create topics asking for AH every day, it means that's what they actually want. And any decent game developer should listen to its players.

players requesting ah are lesser than 1% of total playerbase.
its pretty unlikely that ah will ever be implemented
you should get that through your heads before asking for it.

"

Cyzax wrote:

Not going to happen:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2025870
Confirmed still 100% valid in GGGs latest Q&A session.

You and MrsDeath_ are always there when it comes to begging for AH or rework of trading system.

Instead of bringing up arguments you copy paste that pathetic excuse not to work on the game which is hidden behind that link.

This games economy is garbage to begin with and misses the point of what a ARPG should be.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

most of the players do not trade because they dont care about getting end-gear or they play ssf.

Many people play SSF since it's for them the same as trade-league.. because the trade-mechanic is badly designed. You're falling into a fallacy there. Increasing the convenience (not speed) of trade will cause people to migrate over to trade-league.

Also many don't care about end-game gear for several reasons:
-They are not yet good enough to acquire currency and buy stuff
-The trade-system hinders them to progress in a timely manner with their bad skills as they can't acquire the needed maps.
-They have no clue how to interact with the trading-site
-They don't know the site exists.

Solutions are easy for all of them, and the downsides can be managed as well, it's utter BS to not take it even into consideration.
One example is implement the trade-API inside the game, one major issue already solved, the number of interactions rises accordingly already.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

this is why we cant have auto trade

Didn't talk about automated only, I mentioned it with a single point, the NPC-trader. I'll write a little but further below why that notion isn't viable though.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

this is why trade cant be easy

That's also a fallacy.
Convenient =//= easy =//= quick.
Learn the difference, it's fairly important.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

this is why drops cant be decreased and be harder

The general re-work of drops in 4.0 (hopefully done properly) might put an end to this point, but we'll see about that.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

this is why ah will never be implemented.

Was exactly what I spoke up against in my post, read properly next time.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

its not about convenience. its about how majority of the players do play the game.

Hence no more changes to ANYTHING past Act 10. Ok, so that's where we go in your mind.

Why? 80% of players (a clear majority) never reach maps. 50% never reach Act 2. Once again, take stuff properly into perspective, you failed this time.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

its simply not beneficial to change the trade mechanic just so less than 1% of the playerbase can be happy.

A good 60% of mapping players interact with the trade-mechanics inside a trade-league, that number is very roughly derived from the provided numbers of Steam-Achievements as well as the numbers GGG provided.

Taking away everyone who hasn't finished the 'tutorial' of Act 1-10 (as people call it, which is BS though) and taking away all the people playing in SSF or HC SSF we get this number.

That's a major part of the community, those are the core player-base, hence those play as an important part to the game as all the others put together. It's not a minority if you take it into a perspective of people actually paying for the game and providing the long-term stability. Without them the game dies obviously.
You need both a core audience as well as a changing audience, otherwise you won't have a healthy company, that's business 101.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

this 1% includes let there be a npc to leave out our items and let auto trade be a thing crowd.

Auto-trade with the respective downsides attached (limited amount of trade and/or a waiting time on receiving items) takes care of the exact fears people are talking about, making trade too quick and acquiring stuff too swiftly.
Hence no, automation isn't the cause of it, it's the notion that people derive from it... which isn't necessity though, hence it's a strawman, though a fairly strong one in comparison to the usual ones.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

trade is just fine. api can be peeked a little and that will be it. no changes required there.

Says someone who generally progresses at the beginning of the league - like me - in the top area of the whole player-base and thus has no issues later on which are caused by devaluation and decrease in time-versus-reward-viability for small trades.
Speak to people who start off mid-league or who progress very slowly, I have several of them in my friends-list and the general notion is overall the same, trade is frustrating.

"

Xavathos wrote:

Now... -puts on sunglasses in an already barely illuminated indoor room-
What if I told you, that what you just described, is by design?

-Takes those sunglasses away and laughs at you since you used them entirely wrong and made a joke of yourself-

Let's go with the notion that it's by design. The trade-system in the current state is obviously frustrating by design if we go with your train of thought. This is because obviously people won't reply for small trades if they are in content, people getting several messages in short amounts of times for smaller trades and thus ignoring half of them or people waiting 30 minutes to even get a reply... not to speak of people messaging several people replying 'sold' over and over again. This is inherently frustrating.

Now to put that further it means we have a game-mechanic which provides no direct profit to the company despite being frustrating. This is generally seen as a detrimental mechanic as negative experiences weight psychologically more then positive ones if provided repeatedly.
This further means people tend to leave the game because of the frustrating thing and despite the great other stuff in the game.

Such a mechanic can only be used in situations where direct profit is available, which for instance are lootboxes or gambling-mechanics which are a general loss for the user. Yes, absolutely not ethical and a disgusting move of every company... but it provides more profit compared to those people leaving because of it.

So no, you're missing a few important points in your argument there.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

no they are simply unaware and most likely uninterested with trading.
it has nothing to do with system.

Fairly conceited notion you're making there.

Who says that? Personal experience of several people point in the other direction, you're openly disregarding those and branding them as liers with your words, even if you didn't intend it.

Not a nice move. It has to at least be taken into consideration, and it's a fairly important thing to consider actually.

Sure, several other reasons add to this as well, though it's one reason people leave.. and every reason people leave are an important one to take into consideration to make a game better... as well as from a business-standpoint.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

there is a difference between giving items free and items being worth 0 to nothing. creating auto trade would simply empty the current trade economy. and you are unable to see that. its understandable.

Absolutely, I'm on the same page with the first part of your comment. It falls apart with making a reasoning for auto-trade though.

Auto-trade itself isn't the cause, period. Since in-game economy and RL economy underly the same rules exactly it means with the same existing situations the same outcomes will generally be achieved.

Since auto-trading in the form of storefronts, vending-machines, stock-trading and several more options exist, as well as them being a general positive notion it only means that in-game the provided downsides from the system need to be alleviated and then automated trade can be implemented.
Otherwise you'll once again create a fallacy, the point isn't about auto-trade, it's about the measures needed to be taken to take care of the created issues with it and the resources which would need to be alleviated to it.
So no, strawman again, this time a fairly weak one.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

that sounds like you have a problem with contacting right people.

Happens, can create a very unwanted disparity, thus the frustrating part.
It's an issue hence and thus needs to be solved.

That's how problem-solving is done generally. The question is only the priority on the list compared to other things, the need for it is obvious though.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

These are not cheap because the sales are not so frequent in these. When you introduce auto trade that makes the items sell faster it causes to drop prices in exchange. To be able to match with fast trades sellers has to make up by dropping prices. Its pretty common in trades. When you give easy access to a product the prices tend to drop because of this easy access.
Human element in current trade system provides a price wall to items thus making them somewhat heavy in price.

True... to a degree only though.

You're disregarding demand versus supply fully here. Speed of a trade is non-relevant if the demand for an items is higher then the supply. It only becomes an issue if it's the other way around.

Equipment-trades already are a non-issue as the starting price-range is usually 5-10c for items, people generally reply with that.

The cause for concern is with low-tiered items, 1 alch, 1 chisel, 1 chaos. Those price-ranges create a myriad of non-repliers (me included) as the people are in a map and for instance fight against Legion at the time, run a Delve, run lab, have opened a breach, run a boss... many more.

Hence automated trading itself once again is a strawman here, sure, prices will change, though the amount of change is purely coming from the sudden increase in supply as trading becomes more convenient and the shift in supply versus demand, not by the mechanic itself. Thus a time-limitation as well as a limitation of the amount of trades is necessary and the issue is solved.

"

Cyzax wrote:

Say you produce an item and want to sell that, you have some costs that determine what price you can sell the item at:
- Production cost
- Transport cost
- Sales cost

This notion alone is not applicable in PoE, you took the wrong system to compare with.

In PoE we have consumables which mean Production-cost, Production-time, Sales-time. No other things apply here.

For rare items we have a unique situation each time, it's not based on production-time but instead quality of the product, production-cost of mass-producable items in comparison, Selling-time.

Since the demand for high-tiered items always outweighs the supply. This is simply the case because creating a mirror-tier item needs the combined effort of hundreds of players farming to create a single item commonly.
Yes, you won't interact with the majority of them, nonetheless those people strive in the same direction, as the creator you're simply the person making the profit while the others don't, the amount of consumables in circulation decreases accordingly nonetheless.

That's a product depending on other products then, several demand/supply chains are interacting with each other accordingly and all have to be taken into perspective separately for it.

And after that... we need to take care of space limitation. Which we have in PoE and thus:

"

Cyzax wrote:

Now, remove the sales cost, what would happen? That's right, every trading player would put up everything they thought would sell, and also a shedload of stuff that might sell once in a blue moon and so on. The prices would be forced down to almost nothing, just above vendor cost even for stuff that would currently sell at 10s of Chaos, simply because the market would be flooded.

Invalidate this concept entirely as there is an upper-limit already introduced. And hence make this:

"

Cyzax wrote:

That is the scenario that the current system is designed to avoid, and GGG would be mad to abandon it... and they're well aware of that.

A strawman as well.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

demand stays the same. cuz of easy trade there would be many more sellers therefore many more items. thus making prices go down.

yes it is possible to undervalue good items. it happens every day with price fixing. a stranger to the market value would greatly misprice their item.

Which is the notion talked above already.
Yes, this would be the case.
This needs to be tackled by GGG with the drops for items.
It entirely depends on the amount of items and the quality of thus dropped versus those you can create reliably with consumables as well as the availability of those consumables.

Hence the drop-rate of items needs to be lowered to remove 'absolutely garbage' and have those few drops be higher quality in a degree which won't saturate the market immediately.

Can be done because of the vast range of available mods and their interaction with one another. This is what GGG promised for 4.0 after all, so that point is only valid for a limited amount of time.

"

Xavathos wrote:

The only reason people sell those at all is because it's automated. You really think people would sit in a hideout all day to sell 3 cent emotes if that's what it took? Of course not. This is the cost of trading many have tried to explain to you. A cost that would disappear completely in an automated system, as seen on Steam market.

Unlike the Steam market in PoE there is a storage-limitation though. Before selling 500 3-cent things you'll throw them away to have 5-cent things... then 10-cent, then a Dollar... and so on. Hence the saturation of the market shifts regarding the state of a league towards standard-prices... which is a stable market if you haven't realized, and despite long-term existence fully functional.

"

MaxGor31 wrote:

1. If trading becomes doable why the number of byers stay the same? Because you want it? Lol It will increase at least proportionally to the sellers. All those people who never trade cause they don't want to bother will trade.

Because supply rises in higher amounts the demand for low-tier items. So yes, low-tier trading would see a change in pricing, as well as mid-tier items. The same can't be said about anything close to multi-modded items though, those are the new limit for 'quality-gear' and hence are the baseline for prices.

"

MaxGor31 wrote:

2. Who said that sales cost would go away? AH can have it's fee, it depends on realisation, we speak of the idea not the exact application.

Time-investment or trade-limitations do the job as well as fees... while applying to everyone in the same manner, not punishing people starting off.

"

MaxGor31 wrote:

If it was AH i would buy underpriced item to use it, why the fuck should i sell it, i'm not some flipper scum.

It's fairly stupid not to take an opportunity if it presents itself. Your weird personal preferences can be left as nobody gives a fuck about flipper, they stabilize a market by the way.

"

Apachy wrote:

Price fixing is the results of the flawed system. And 1 or 2 strangers will not change the picture.

Exactly, that's why a change is mandatory. The question of how that change looks like is the actual only viable discussion. The if it's important isn't.

"

Apachy wrote:

I will repeat it once again, the problem of trading is GGG's problem. I, as a customer, should not even bother myself with this.

Absolutely on your page there, the annoyance of trading shouldn't be pushed onto the player, the system needs to be made so it's convenient for both sides.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

lol
stop being selfish
if poe gets destroyed by ah we will not have any poe to play with anymore.
some people dont think about future or others...
ok if trade becomes easier drops has to be harder
this would effect the game fundamentally. you me everyone
you would have to try harder to drop items and make currency because trade is easy.
while most of the playerbase which does not even trade has to deal with bad drop rates.
got it?
an ah wouldnt just destroy the game for you but everyone else aswell.
think bigger. stop this me me me sh*t. the world doesnt owe you sh*t. especially in a free game like this.

He's not selfish, you're conceited again. Pointing out an issue isn't a bad thing, everyone should have the right to do it and especially should be prompted to do it. After all that's the only way how a company can see where players see problems.
De-valuating his issues are just a tasteless move.
Also you missed the point entirely, all he said was: The system needs a change as the current one isn't enjoyable... which... is a very true notion and more then viable.

"

Apachy wrote:

It is THEIR job to creat a balanced system.

Absolutely, the job of a company is to provide a quality-product.

The job of the customer is to showcase issues with a product and pay the company to keep providing.

Hence it's in the best interest of a company to increase the quality of every part of their product as quickly as possible, the only reason GGG can be allowed to not to it is the lack of similar ARPGs on the market, creating a vacuum for a product.
Once again business 101.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

we talked about this
balanced game with ah means most of the players leaving the game.

Correlation =//= causation.

GW2 is a proof of one game which is balanced and has an AH and has been thriving until customer-support became ever more garbage. Still wildly successful.
MASSIVE strawman.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

2- ggg(chris) wants items to have a value, they matter with his words.
so making them meaningless and cheap would ruin the purpose of having an unending game with endless upgrades you can do.

Yes, items should have a value.
No, automated trade can't destroy the itemization-system even remotely in such a degree, god-tier items literally deplete the entirety of the market, creating enough to even support 1% of the playerbase is impossible thus. Hence not a viable notion.

"

MortalKombat3 wrote:

But we live in a free world, where everyone has the right to express their opinion. If players create topics asking for AH every day, it means that's what they actually want. And any decent game developer should listen to its players. If GGG doesnt - well, it's worse for them! Just like president, who doesnt listen to his voters, or merchant, whodoesnt listen tohis customers, they wont last long.

Let's not go overboard here...

Creating an AH is the majority of the topics as people mostly know AH-systems overall.

Going a few steps into their direction by creating another trading-system simply would be more then enough and not cause Mayhem left and right right away. That's all people actually want, not the issues existing now.

"

Xavathos wrote:

While player feedback is vital, one should never forget their "place". Ultimately leave the professional decisions to the professionals. Trust that they know what's best and sometimes that means making peace with a design choice that may not be in line with your ideals. You're the end-user, so you have significance, but you can't please everyone. A good developer knows this as well.

Well... yes, they have professional opinions. But as a customer in a restaurant I don't need to be a cook to say 'This has to much salt' 'This is plain' or 'This tastes like utter garbage as it's burned'.
Players aren't iditos, if they see some mechanic and it feels utterly shitty... well, they'll say 'Fic that thing!'... and they'll be right about the need to fix it.
What the might not be right about is the way to fix it, but that's the dev's responsibility.

"

Kulze wrote:

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

its not about convenience. its about how majority of the players do play the game.

Hence no more changes to ANYTHING past Act 10. Ok, so that's where we go in your mind.

Why? 80% of players (a clear majority) never reach maps. 50% never reach Act 2. Once again, take stuff properly into perspective, you failed this time.

no.
majority of the players who reach maps doesnt trade either.
you wanna ruin the game with the drops for the rest of them too?
i can see that you would wanna defend your point since its your points but i would never ever do something 1% wants and risk losing my game entirely if i were a game owner.
its that simple. i dont care about rest of your points. you can go through all of my posts in this topic and my stance is iron solid.
i see no benefits for ggg to make ah or auto trade or easy trade a part of their game.
this could be done with other games. whatever they already made a series of their games and sold their copies it doesnt concern us.
poe is one complete game. once its gone it can never come back. you cant undo this change. on top of that doing it for less than 1% of your playerbase?
nah. i dont think so.

"

Kulze wrote:

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

its not about convenience. its about how majority of the players do play the game.

Hence no more changes to ANYTHING past Act 10. Ok, so that's where we go in your mind.

Why? 80% of players (a clear majority) never reach maps. 50% never reach Act 2. Once again, take stuff properly into perspective, you failed this time.

Yeah, following to his logic, GGG should give up on any changes to maps, because most players dont reach those. Or maybe evengive upon content past Act2...

That's the FLAWED logic! If 50% of your players stop at Act 2, then it's a clear indicator that you should work hard on how to improve game so those 50% "leavers" would stay in game longer. Maybe, make a game far more newbie-friendly with detailed in-game manual? And of course, add fully-functional in-game trading itemsearch system, at very least. There is absolutely ZERO reason (beside GGG's laziness), why PoE's trading search should be performed with some internet site outside the game client.
One might dislike AH, but if he dislikes THIS, then i can clearly claim that person's "opinion" involves some sort of interest in abusing current flawed trading system, and thus shouldnt be accounted for.

I strongly believe, that AH would be absolutely 0 hard to PoE's economy, if its interface was made on par with PoE.trade. If one tells about massive inflation and drop being useless - well, that's ALREADY the case, as current trading system isnt that "hard" anyway, it's just annoying. GGG already made massive "swings" in droprates and item power with recent leagues, where we were able to craft GODLY items, that could blow any balance out of water. If they care about "economy" so much, why do they allow all that powercreep for items? That makes no sense.

And when i see how WK's like those 2 you mentioned are defending currenttrading systemso aggressively, i can come to only 1 reasonable conclusion - that they have strong interest in current flawed and frustrating trading system, so they must have been abusing it to get profits (with prive indexer sniping, "price fixing", botting, or some sililar crap. It's only logical, that no sane person would ever like a system, where one has to PM 10-20 times to get an answer, or has to skip multiple PMs himself due to Delve/lab/Elder/party farm/...

double post

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

no.
majority of the players who reach maps doesnt trade either.

Not mentioned in the statistics anywhere.
GGG didn't discern between players reaching the mapping-experience and those still stuck inside Act 1-10 with their statistics back when they were released.
Hence once again... Strawman.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

you wanna ruin the game with the drops for the rest of them too?

GGG is re-working the whole drop-system for 4.0, overdue anyway. So do you think what they are going to do will be inherently negative?

2 can play your little game with 'but what about the children!'

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

i can see that you would wanna defend your point since its your points but i would never ever do something 1% wants and risk losing my game entirely if i were a game owner.

IF that would only be 1% of the people then sure... we're not talking about 1% here though, at least not 1% of long-term players outside of SSF. We're talking about a vastly bigger number of those.

But since your whole notion is build up on a ridiculously wrong statement on the first part it's hard to say a lot more about it. Also... sure I'm defending my point, don't you do the same? The difference is that over the course of the last 20 Threats I've adjusted my arguments away from AH towards other parts of trading while taking into account the downsides mentioned in all of them over time, as well as the upsides of different systems suggested.

On the other hand I can't see that happening with you yet. Maybe there's where the difference might be?

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

its that simple. i dont care about rest of your points. you can go through all of my posts in this topic and my stance is iron solid.

Hence your whole notion is not to taken into perspective, since you're not even putting time and effort into trying to understand the train of thought from someone else you won't be able to find a solution to an obvious problem in the game.

Rather then taking the hard way and discussing it properly you're choosing to flee the issue instead and spout 'Just don't change the game I like! No matter how!'
Detrimental for any form of discussion.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

i see no benefits for ggg to make ah or auto trade or easy trade a part of their game.

-Higher participation-count in said system.
-Less dropouts from the game leaving because they get frustrated.
-More viable end-game solutions as after your farming-equip for specific content you're stuck at the moment. Mirror-tier or God-Tier equipment can't be enjoyably produced as the acquisition of the consumables needed for them is nigh impossible despite them being listed and being wealthy enough to do so.
-The ability to spread the income of the company further with more options. Cheaper stash-tabs, all of them with the ability to be re-named and customized while the trading-ability many buy a tab for separated to the trading-mechanic. Trade-slots. This creates smaller sales which in return increase the overall amount of sales since people are more prone to buy for smaller price-tags but more often.
-Implemented tracking of which items sell how often inside the game, this is another form of very important feedback for GGG to discern if the rarity for specific mods or uniques is proper.

Need a few more? It's really hard to miss all of them, you should've come up with at least 1 or 2 of them by yourself, given you would've put your mind into it a but further then simply going on the defensive immediately.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

this could be done with other games. whatever they already made a series of their games and sold their copies it doesnt concern us.

What are you talking about? By the same logic nobody should be pissed at EA for releasing Anthem in the state it was in. Or Bethesda for releasinf Fallout 76 for the same state. Or any game. After all it#s already sold, right? Nothing to be annoyed about anymore.

Also GGG uses the live-service model, hence they are providing ongoing and permanent support for the game, hence yes... it's still a concern. By your logic they should just stand up tomorrow and walk away without even making a league anymore.
Really now? You can do better.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

poe is one complete game. once its gone it can never come back. you cant undo this change. on top of that doing it for less than 1% of your playerbase?

PoE WAS a complete game. By now the amount of bugs at the end of a league made it regress into the common state of a beta-game. Also the missing balance shows the same.
Yes, it WAS once upon a time able to be regarded a finished game.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

nah. i dont think so.

You see, where I come from there is a fun little saying as the word 'belief' and the term for picking something up are interchangeable.
It roughly goes like this: You know what the highest part is about beliefing? Your buttocks.

Kulze
My applauds!
GGG should hire you ASAP or take your consultations.

White knigts (who are defending GGG at all cost) do not realise that they are doing more harm than good. However, numbers, which GGG does not show us but which we can find ourselfs (at least some of them), tell us that situation is getting out of control. Core players are frustrated and leaving.