Ending the Speed Meta, or Redefining Chris Wilson's "better builds are faster"

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IamLoco wrote:

People don´t like being slow or slowed down.

I'm sure I can't be alone here, but I love going fast, and equally love when things try to slow me down. It makes it so much more satisfying when you're still bombing through it.

Edit: Except for literal slows, fuck Vine Snare, Temporal Chains, and Chill so much.

Edit again: vvv Dude, that boots idea is sweet.

Imagine doing a slow build in an ARPG wtf lol even in grimdawn I'm fast af

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IamLoco wrote:

People don´t like being slow or slowed down.

People don't like being forced to do the game at a certain speed either.

The problem isn't "the game is too fast". Let players play as fast as they want - to a certain degree. The problem is when the game forces you into a certain way of thinking/playing. "Speed" is the main factor in timeless zones. If you're playing a... "Conservative" build - not even that slow, these encounters will NEVER be rewarding. Hell, they'll probably be a 200c loss - just because you prefer to not play mindlessly fast?

Build diversity is one thing. The game has build diversity. But the game lacks in play style diversity, as it forces certain thresholds upon you. Unnecessary thresholds, in practice making most builds play out the same. Bringing timers into endgame boss fights takes the game from "can I do it?" to "how fast can I do it?/how many times can I beat the boss(es)?"

An RPG - even an aRPG - should be very careful as to set restrictions on how people play.

reflect damage or any form of forcing players to slow down will create a riot from all the speed addicts, rathern than random nerfs to speed builds what they need to do is improve slow builds experience, Few things that come to mind:

remove timers: speed builds dont care about timers since they will kill everything well before it hits 0 so it makes cero effect on them but it will be a godsend for slower builds that strugle to clear timed events like incursion or legion.


add powerfull uniques that suport slow builds, for instance unique boots "living armor":

+200 armor
socketed melee attack gems gain 1-2 phys damage every 500 armor
melee attack gems gain 1% increased aoe every 500 armor (global)
armor phys damage reduction formula olso apply to elemental damage with 50% effectivness
1% reduced movement speed every 1000 armor
1% reduced attack speed every 500 armor
-1% to all elemental ressistances every 400 armor

I play leagues as a challenge so I have no issues if my playstyle or build doesn't fit to the league mechanics. Ofc I would ask if there is any tools lacking for my playstyle (but not to change the game to fit to my style.)

Melee rebalance in 3.7 is the long waited answer from GGG for me so I don't really care about league mechanics in detail for now. Multistirke rework, added base damage on skills, speed multiplier on skills, AoE damage scaling, per hit damage scaling (impale, rage)
Those should make for the "feel" of build progressions and gameplay.

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Phrazz wrote:

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IamLoco wrote:

People don´t like being slow or slowed down.

People don't like being forced to do the game at a certain speed either.

The problem isn't "the game is too fast". Let players play as fast as they want - to a certain degree. The problem is when the game forces you into a certain way of thinking/playing. "Speed" is the main factor in timeless zones. If you're playing a... "Conservative" build - not even that slow, these encounters will NEVER be rewarding. Hell, they'll probably be a 200c loss - just because you prefer to not play mindlessly fast?

Build diversity is one thing. The game has build diversity. But the game lacks in play style diversity, as it forces certain thresholds upon you. Unnecessary thresholds, in practice making most builds play out the same. Bringing timers into endgame boss fights takes the game from "can I do it?" to "how fast can I do it?/how many times can I beat the boss(es)?"

An RPG - even an aRPG - should be very careful as to set restrictions on how people play.

This is a massive problem and needs to be addressed if this league goes core. In army battles, you have all these interesting bosses with their interesting mechanics, but the only way to actually not just delete numerous exalts in 5 legion battles is to kill every single boss in a couple seconds and gets nothing.

While I'm also very supportive of the removal of nearly all timers, I do think if GGG wanted to rein in the speed of the game, incentivizing slower gameplay is a start.

People keep saying that faster is more loot, but again I give examples of map mods that could very well balance out. I'll reiterate the map mod presented:

Player speed cannot be modified above base speed, +200-400% to item quantity and rarity.

You can, for instance, reroll over that map mod the same way you'd do when it comes to reflect.

Things such as this are to at least condition out the idea of slower=less loot or worse play as what are currently considered slow builds have strengths in other forms. It's precisely that the game only rewards the builds strong in speed that it's become a major problem.

To reiterate, I'm not talking about builds that are purposely made to be slow, rather that have invested in other strengths that the game doesn't currently focus on or even reward i.e. anything other than speed.

It's after incentivizing slower gameplay after the community is acclimated to it can they start doing things like reintroducing reflect

As for reflect being considered an outdated mechanic, I think it did it's job well. It made you pay attention instead of the mindless mass slaughter that currently occurs.

But, even if they do not replace reflect, simply creating new content that rewards builds that cater to different strengths isn't a bad thing at all.

You're confusing the issue by calling it "meta". Speed is the metric by which we're evaluating meta. That's not ever going to change. Ever. Players want more faster. If a build can accomplish that better than others, it becomes meta. That doesn't mean speed is the meta.

What you're really asking for is that they make the game have less of a gap between meta and non-meta. To make choices the players make matter less. If I want to play Dual Strike, I should be able to do almost as well as an arc-trapper, or whatever meta you want to compare it to.

You can't. The difference is too extreme. Choices matter too much.

The problem is though that if you got what you want, you'd end up with a game with no meaningful choices left... it would all be cosmetic.

So we're on a spectrum. Are we too far to one side? Probably.

My issue isn't that fast is better. My issue is that fast is mandatory if you want to participate in basic league mechanics. And as those mechanics have drifted into the base game, you can't play at all unless you can zoom-zoom.

Fast has always been more efficient, but I played a slow build in Legacy and loved every minute of it. And it worked just fine. Did I get as rich as the zoom-zoom guys? No. Did I accomplish everything I wanted in that league? Yes.

Come forward a bit to Incursion and slow is simply not viable. You could not play a slow build in Incursion at all, because you have mere seconds to clear a large zone if you intend to interact with the league content. Don't zoom-zoom and you just can't play the league mechanic at all. Incursion is now base game. Legion is the same way. Not only is Incursion still part of it, but the new league mechanic also mandates zoom-zoom. So does Betrayal, to some extent (mostly because of the research mechanic, but big shock, research is more rewarding that the other 3 branches).

So we've reached a point where not only is speed better for everything else, but it's actually a requirement for accessing large amounts of content, and that content is more rewarding intrinsically than the parallel content accessible to slower builds. That's a bit absurd. Speed is already better, why make it better still by giving only fast builds not just more rewards (as a consequence of clearing more stuff in the same time) but better rewards, and access to things that normal builds can't reach at all?

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Shagsbeard wrote:

You're confusing the issue by calling it "meta". Speed is the metric by which we're evaluating meta. That's not ever going to change. Ever. Players want more faster. If a build can accomplish that better than others, it becomes meta. That doesn't mean speed is the meta.

What you're really asking for is that they make the game have less of a gap between meta and non-meta. To make choices the players make matter less. If I want to play Dual Strike, I should be able to do almost as well as an arc-trapper, or whatever meta you want to compare it to.

You can't. The difference is too extreme. Choices matter too much.

The problem is though that if you got what you want, you'd end up with a game with no meaningful choices left... it would all be cosmetic.

So we're on a spectrum. Are we too far to one side? Probably.

I'm not confusing the issue at all.

Speed is only the current metric used because every single encounter from 2.0 onwards only rewarded speed.

Take for example if there were essentially immortal enemies that only died after they completed an unavoidable attack upon your character. Suddenly, tanky builds are the focus of such an environment. Or, how about if original reflect were still in the game. There's still some focus on speed, but also a focus on either awareness or on defense.

Now, what I'm truly asking for are situations that reward anything other than speed or damage. GGG can decide whether or not to implement them.

And, it is in this sense that true player choice comes into action. Go full speed meta, then you either struggle or cannot complete the encounters that require strength of a different sort.

Right now, there isn't a single choice. You go full speed or you flounder. Every single ability will clear a pack in one shot regardless. Your main goal will be to skip phases asap in boss fights. Enemies are glorified loot pinatas.

Also, how have you glossed over a map mod like this? Player speed cannot be modified above base, but with large item quant/rarity? This is a defining change that will ultimate come down to exactly what you've built your character to do, while also making combat much more focused instead of the 900% movespeed we normally see.