Ending the Speed Meta, or Redefining Chris Wilson's "better builds are faster"

Thread has been a long time coming given recent developments and discussions.

First, I'd like to take a moment to repost a gem of wisdom that has been ignored:



This is they key point to take away here, in that GGG has failed to incentivize slower game pace. While Chris Wilson's (paraphrased) comments on slower builds being worse due to drops, I think the oft overlooked fact is that the devs themselves have nearly full control over an outcome like this.

Point #1: the evolution of the "speed meta" has come about from certain forms of disincentives being removed, the primary one being instantaneous damage reflection. For those who have been around since 1.3-2.0 and onward, the idea of speed clearing in today's scale would've been ludicrous in those times on any build except an auto bomber (which was more developed later) due to the fact that instantaneous reflect existed.

There was no offscreening without risking death. There was no indiscriminate slaughter of everything that moved with no challenge. And, there was an inherent need of defense, as your resistance/effective hp allowed you to potentially survive a large reflect hit.

I think the largest point about this is if you cared to search for it, many of the major supporters and defenders of the "speed meta" are the people who were hating reflect the most when it was prominent.

Slower (not necessarily slow), deliberate gameplay also started dying as the recipe to success became "kill quick before they hit you" which meant defenses became less of a requirement.

Point #2: GGG has almost trapped themselves into this design space. Any enemy outside of an endgame boss is often regarded as a joke even to average players. This "go go go, faster, faster, faster" gameplay while fun for a while, gets very draining very quickly. This fact is still true even considering the rare/magic monster hp buff. the only time average enemies even pose a threat in this game are in the deepest parts of delve or when you're deliberately running a reflect map of your damage type.

Furthermore, the effect on the community after a long time of this is somewhat concerning. Even longtime players are noting the shallowness of the gameplay as it currently stands. The mountain of grinds for every endgame mechanic in every new league is also very concerning as such mechanics seem balanced on clearing maximum maps per hour, regardless of any other factor. Can you imagine the potential backlash of GGG slowing all of that down or attempting meaningful ways of toning it down?

I'd imagine both the forums and reddit would be in an uproar.



Point #3: GGG has failed in incentivizing slower builds. Corresponding with a removal of disincentives for the speed meta, the lack of incentives for slower deliberate gameplay has led the game to the state it is now. Slower builds usually come in different flavors and strengths. They either deal damage in different ways (melee/minion/less aoe) or have an extreme focus on defense.

There's nothing in this game currently that says "it's ok/really good to take this slower", moreover attempting to do so hamstrings you for literally every other activity in the game. Nearly everything has a timer nowadays enforcing a damage floor, and primarily there isn't a single problem (outside of lab puzzles) that can't currently be solved by killing the enemy before they can hurt you.

Now, there exists a huge problem for adding incentives to slower builds, namely point #2. Any attempt at a league that's generally focused around slower builds is one likely to fail because of what GGG has allowed to continue and what the returning playerbase is currently acclimated to playing.

But, if GGG truly wanted to innovate and solve the current speed meta, they'd have to incentivize slower gameplay from the niche to the main gameplay. By that I mean something like this in ascending scale of gameplay effect.

1) New map mods that incentivize slower gameplay. For example, "Player speed cannot be modified above base" would mean such a map would force a player to slow down. Such a map mod needs large bonuses to rarity and quantity to make worthwhile and to work as an actual incentive. However, the main point is such content is optional, and "speed meta" players need not play it.



2) New boss design that challenges builds/players on the basis of fortitude or other factors. Examples are bosses that can be defeated using environmental objects or a boss utilizing reflect damage phases. This would benefit builds that are slower dps, minion builds with high minion count, supreme tank builds, party players, or observant players. Anything that rewards the player in ways other than mindlessly zerging the boss down. Again, such a boss is optional, speedmapping remains mostly untouched.

3) Incentivizing slower play with unavoidable damage. Unavoidable boss slams that deal damage based upon boss's damage taken in the last 10 seconds for example. Another exampleis unavoidable boss damage split among # of targets hit. Either the player has defenses enough to tank it, game sense enough to stop dps before the slam, enough minions to mitigate it, or other players to help soften the blow of the slam. Heavily punishes miners/trappers that can bypass reflect mechanics. Again, such bosses are optional, average speed meta clearer does not need to do so.

4) Bringing back reflect damage rares. I mean the original, nearly unavoidable, instantaneous damage reflect, not the physical/elemental thorns we have now. Not likely to happen, but I'll list it anyway as it's a strong disincentive for offscreen clearing and a strong incentive for defense building. Very strong mapping/game effect.



So, going back to the main point, which I'll hope you see through my examples and suggestions, it's not a matter of slower builds being bad or faster builds being better, rather the game has become lopsided in what exactly gets rewarded in drops. The additions of timers is really killing build diversity as there's an unspoken pressure of building a certain way to ensure speed baselines are met.

However, there's never any punishing factors for too much speed/damage, nor is there any reward for having a build strong in other areas. It's this that gives rise to the so called "speed meta".

Such things are not likely to fix the master grind alone, however I do have a thread on that here: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2458667

Yeah fuck that speed is everything slow has no place here end of this story.

Sorry but the only way for people who farm without flipping to gain any currency is by moving fast. Aint nobody got time to play a map for 15+ minutes. If you want the entire game to slow down you have to also increase rewards which will be a nightmare to balance.

Yo did you even read his post? I didn't I bet it was the same stuff that the slow community wants.

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I_NO wrote:

Yeah fuck that speed is everything slow has no place here end of this story.

If you actually read the thread, it's more about finding ways to reward slower plays rather than pure speed/damage.

Alternatively, bringing back the original reflect. I still remember how you used to complain about them.

Everything in life is about efficiency. If you can do something for even the same result but faster, then you will take that path.

Go play a slow game then if you want to waddle and be deliberately hamstrung for some odd satisfaction.

It's like complaining fast twitch FPS games like CS are too based on speed+reaction and need "slowing down".

You can't balance things being the same slow vs fast, fast is just overall better and you have to decide if you like that style.

You should never be rewarded equally for doing the same task but slower that's just stupid. And adding concrete walls to stop fast play will kill your franchise faster than anything. Stop listening to the idiotic minority.

^ the fact fast is better anyway is why you don't have to balance with it in mind

you can take the view that speed meta is the underlying truth of ARPGs and it probably is but power creep isn't which is primarily what people actually have a problem with.

The faster we go and the higher our damage the less defense is required, its a feedback loop. I'm definitely gonna go back to HC next league I think but i'm genuinely hoping 4.0 has a full rebalance with some vision behind how powerful they actually want us to be.

A "speed meta" of one form or another has basically been part of the genre as long as I've known it, going years before PoE was even a thought in Chris's mind.

You can't defend "slower" play by saying faster is tedious - the reality is fast or slow its all repetitive.

You can't garner support when you put such a focus on reflect - I can't think of a single game where the general player base "enjoyed" having to contend with reflect mechanics.


And ultimately you have to understand why speed became a thing at all in the first place. When random chance is the defining factor, it only makes sense that speed and efficiency is the norm - the faster one goes the more potential drop chances in an allotted period of time.

No one is "forced" to play at streamer level efficiency, and most people simply don't.

You have to ask yourself, is it "slower play" that you're advocating for, or simply a desire to receive the same rewards with less effort.

I've slowly been working on my first headhunter for what, six leagues now. Some people can run the farm every league, I myself accept that the reward wouldn't justify the tedium for me.

This reminds me of "Actual Hardcore No Lube All Mods" by ProjectPT

You can "Alch and go without checking the map mod" anytime if you want.

It's not a meta if it doesn't change.