EXP LOSS POLL

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Fruz wrote:

Or you know what you are doing and are leveling in red map (without dying) at a much faster pace than in low level maps.

Outside of the special extra exp areas I really disagree this is true, even comparing tier 16 maps to tier 8s, monster hp scales much faster than monster experience, so even taking the 20 or so percent penalty from higher level areas it's just kinda faster to run around the area where you one shot everything.

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If you play a glassy character and play really rippy content (relative to the character) or just fail to evaluate its limits then ... well, that content was too much for you.

We don't have instant volatiles, reflect rare (although we still have the fucking map mod) and lightning torns packs anymore, you don't just die out of the blue if you know what you are doing, really.

The problem isn't dying to rippy content it's the rippy content isn't consistent enough to really evaluate. It's very out of the blue, because even in the most dangerously rolled maps maybe there's only one thing lurking around that's going to kill you if anything. The problem is that often in a single zone you don't recognize that the white mobs aren't easy, the blue mobs are tough, so the yellow mobs are dangerous. You end up with the white mobs are easy, the blue mobs are easy, and most of the yellow mobs are easy, and then holy crap the one thing is way out of wack with everything else in the zone.

You die less out of the blue, because the get you out of the blue mobs less, but the disparity between a dangerous mob and anything else is really high. More to the point though dangerous mobs are characterized by high damage output and not really anything like difficult mechanics (again except for the later bosses).

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I can agree that the screen clutter makes the whole thing more frustrating, that with the lack of any log whatsoever, but this isn't enough of a reason to just stop punishing people's mistake and open the door to everybody playing purely glass canon and never being afraid of any content anymore imho (and I have yet to see a clever suggestion as a replacement to the current penalty).

Yea but the clever suggestion is the limited map portals isn't it? You died 6 times and lost access to the map, and the resources spent to get it. The point of punishing people isn't to just punish people, it's to teach people that the thing you just did is bad, and get them to correct that course of action. If you don't know why you're being punished it's just random, and not really doing a good job. Of course like a lot of other problems in the game there are a lot of ways of solving this, but leaving things as is, is just kinda not serving the purpose of fun.

It's just tiresome and aggravating at this point, what purpose does it serve in a game like this where death is random and unavoidable more often than not?

I just tied in a T8 Pit map, after killing the boss.
The room was just full of garbage and apparently some beyond unique spawned, not that I could actually see anything with such a mob density and amount of effects. The death was instant anyhow.

It is almost always like this, there are no cues and no time to react, you die and that is, it doesn't teach you to play better.

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C4Guy wrote:

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ramosmichel wrote:

To put it simply, if you die at 50% xp bar, you lose 5%. Die at 70%, lose 7%. It is less than the current (fixed 10%) penalty applied.

Why make it dependent on the current level progress? Why should the penalty be more severe towards the end of the bar?

I'd say if it has to be something like that, make the XP loss a stacking debuff. First time, you lose 1% and get one debuff stacked. If you manage to stay death-free until you gained a certain percentage of XP again, the debuff goes away but if you die before that, you lose (e. g.) 1 + n²*2% XP and get another debuff stacked and so on up until a max. value.

That way occasional deaths from one-shots, disconnects, game freezes, etc. don't really hurt but if you're trying to "die through" a boss encounter you're going to suffer.

That works too!

Now if we could just get a death log showing calculations (buffs/debuffs affecting player, damage received before and after mitigations) so people would stop complaining, but I guess such log is in the "too hard to do" category.

(Not a log displayed in-game, rather a .txt or something in the game dir, after tagging an UI option "Generate log", maybe the game could track just the hits that did more than 80% damage to char HP+ES, dunno how taxing this is on the engine, but they should force our CPUs -client side- to do these calculations and logs, afterall we are the ones asking for it!).

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C4Guy wrote:

I'd say if it has to be something like that, make the XP loss a stacking debuff. First time, you lose 1% and get one debuff stacked. If you manage to stay death-free until you gained a certain percentage of XP again, the debuff goes away but if you die before that, you lose (e. g.) 1 + n²*2% XP and get another debuff stacked and so on up until a max. value.

That way occasional deaths from one-shots, disconnects, game freezes, etc. don't really hurt but if you're trying to "die through" a boss encounter you're going to suffer.

If you add a timed debuff ... you incentive not playing the game, again.

"Oh, I have a one hour debuff ... I guess I'll just afk for one hour and do something else then, I don't want to loose more xp".

And people stop playing the game ...

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J33bus wrote:

Outside of the special extra exp areas I really disagree this is true, even comparing tier 16 maps to tier 8s, monster hp scales much faster than monster experience, so even taking the 20 or so percent penalty from higher level areas it's just kinda faster to run around the area where you one shot everything.

You already pretty much one shot everything in t12~t13 with fotm/good builds, and you can easily have shaped strategies with that so ...
no, definitely not t8.
t12~13~14 ( shaped or unshaped ) is still a level when everything blows up in the blink of an eye for well built characters.

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J33bus wrote:

You die less out of the blue, because the get you out of the blue mobs less, but the disparity between a dangerous mob and anything else is really high. More to the point though dangerous mobs are characterized by high damage output and not really anything like difficult mechanics (again except for the later bosses).

I think that we can blame the speed of the game for that.
Once upon a time, people were checking rare mob's mods ( I still sometimes or even often do ) and there was more time to be careful about stuff.
People who go fast without paying attention ... kind of get punished for it and it must feel out of the blue I guess yeah.
But this is hardly a new thing, the speed of the game just makes it worse/more apparent I think ( again, not talking about Legion mobs here ).

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J33ebus wrote:

Yea but the clever suggestion is the limited map portals isn't it? You died 6 times and lost access to the map, and the resources spent to get it.

Come on .... dying 6 times per maps ?
That means that people who be running maps with absolutely broken characters, likely broken beyong repair ( outside of big boss encounters maybe ) ....
You would have the soft cap not where people die a bit too much, but where people get fucked by the content over and over because their character is just absolutely terrible for the content against which they are throwing it at, which might even be more frustrating for some actually.

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Raudram wrote:

I just tied in a T8 Pit map, after killing the boss.
The room was just full of garbage and apparently some beyond unique spawned, not that I could actually see anything with such a mob density and amount of effects. The death was instant anyhow.

It is almost always like this, there are no cues and no time to react, you die and that is, it doesn't teach you to play better.

So ... you entered a beyond pit map, and did not expect a beyond demon to spawn in the boss room ?
Did you even have corpse removal mechanics in case Bameth would spawn ? Did you think that your character could handle beyond demons at all ?
It's on you, seriously ...

If there was still such a mob density, it means that you lacked either dps or coverage and got overwhelmed = your character was not good enough to handle such a situation.

=> Your fault.
You should learn from it, but instead ... you are now blaming the game.
See where the problem is ?

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Fruz wrote:

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C4Guy wrote:

I'd say if it has to be something like that, make the XP loss a stacking debuff. First time, you lose 1% and get one debuff stacked. If you manage to stay death-free until you gained a certain percentage of XP again, the debuff goes away but if you die before that, you lose (e. g.) 1 + n²*2% XP and get another debuff stacked and so on up until a max. value.

That way occasional deaths from one-shots, disconnects, game freezes, etc. don't really hurt but if you're trying to "die through" a boss encounter you're going to suffer.
If you add a timed debuff ... you incentive not playing the game, again.

"Oh, I have a one hour debuff ... I guess I'll just afk for one hour and do something else then, I don't want to loose more xp".

And people stop playing the game ...

That's why I suggested a debuff that goes away after you gained a certain amount of XP again, not one that's time dependent. So the more XP you gain, the sooner the debuff will be gone/reduced otherwise it will be there until the cows come home.
Well, not quite. I suppose it would be fair to remove the debuff completely once you level up.

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Fruz wrote:

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J33bus wrote:

Yea but the clever suggestion is the limited map portals isn't it? You died 6 times and lost access to the map, and the resources spent to get it.

Come on .... dying 6 times per maps ?
That means that people who be running maps with absolutely broken characters, likely broken beyong repair ( outside of big boss encounters maybe ) ....

How about we make the amount of portals a basic map mod like rarity, quality and pack size and the average amount is more like 2 or 3 instead of 6 for solo play? In return, a portal only disappears if you die, not if you leave to sell stuff, etc.

Two birds, one stone...

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C4Guy wrote:

That's why I suggested a debuff that goes away after you gained a certain amount of XP again, not one that's time dependent. So the more XP you gain, the sooner the debuff will be gone/reduced otherwise it will be there until the cows come home.
Well, not quite. I suppose it would be fair to remove the debuff completely once you level up.

My bad, I read too quickly I guess.

That would be better indeed ( or not as bad ), but that could still very well discourage players ( "so now I am going to level up slower for a while ... ").
That could definitely turn off players ( like some who give up after dying too much with the current system already ), and completely block players if the max value is 'high', which would work as a soft cap, like the current penalty.

I mean yeah ... this proposition could work about the same as the current penalty I guess .... and people ( mostly the same, let's be honest ) would still come and complain about it when their broken builds die.
So in the end, I hardly see how anything would change with this.

To have the same impact as the current penalty, it would need to be quite a harsh debuff or a loss higher than n*1% probably too.

One thing that it would do though, is definitely discourage people from playing hard content after leveling up.
You just ding lvl 91 ? 'Hey, maybe I'm going to try shaper now !' which is a fight that needs learning, and usually dying quite a lot first ( or at least a bunch of times ) ... but with a stacking debuff ?
People are going to play hard content even less, way less imo.

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C4Guy wrote:

How about we make the amount of portals a basic map mod like rarity, quality and pack size and the average amount is more like 2 or 3 instead of 6 for solo play? In return, a portal only disappears if you die, not if you leave to sell stuff, etc.

Two birds, one stone...

As much as I consider party play to be extremely poor in PoE ... it's still a multiplayer game, I don't think that solo exclusive rule should ever be a thing ( SSF leagues are different, players were already there to begin with ).

By the way, a portal not disappearing when you just leave the map would be a huge gate to abusing portaling in/out, when you watch streamers, players with very good gaming setups + good reflex can go through the portal in less than a second so ...

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Fruz wrote:

As much as I consider party play to be extremely poor in PoE ... it's still a multiplayer game, I don't think that solo exclusive rule should ever be a thing ( SSF leagues are different, players were already there to begin with ).

By the way, a portal not disappearing when you just leave the map would be a huge gate to abusing portaling in/out, when you watch streamers, players with very good gaming setups + good reflex can go through the portal in less than a second so ...

the funny thing is,ssf isnt even programmed to be ssf they simply disabled the party invite option and dont allow it to be enabled ingame.
its the best thing they could do to not create any extra problems.

i really with ppl would get that "oh its a multiplayer game,but i dont "like" to play in party so give me an easier solo play option to make it "fair". (not talking about you Fruz,i just read some of those "awesome" idea here in the thread)

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Fruz wrote:

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C4Guy wrote:

That's why I suggested a debuff that goes away after you gained a certain amount of XP again, not one that's time dependent. So the more XP you gain, the sooner the debuff will be gone/reduced otherwise it will be there until the cows come home.
Well, not quite. I suppose it would be fair to remove the debuff completely once you level up.

My bad, I read too quickly I guess.

That would be better indeed ( or not as bad ), but that could still very well discourage players ( "so now I am going to level up slower for a while ... ").
That could definitely turn off players ( like some who give up after dying too much with the current system already ), and completely block players if the max value is 'high', which would work as a soft cap, like the current penalty.

I mean yeah ... this proposition could work about the same as the current penalty I guess .... and people ( mostly the same, let's be honest ) would still come and complain about it when their broken builds die.
So in the end, I hardly see how anything would change with this.

As I said, it would greatly reduce the impact of occasional deaths from one-shots, disconnects, game freezes, etc. because the XP loss would be much less for the first death and the average player shouldn't have a problem staying alive until the debuff is gone. Those who die frequently will of course have more or less the same situation than before but that's what the death penalty should be there for, isn't it?

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Fruz wrote:

To have the same impact as the current penalty, it would need to be quite a harsh debuff or a loss higher than n*1% probably too.

I'd say (n+1)^2 * 1% with n being the number of debuffs the player currently has up to a max. stack of 3 would be fair.

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Fruz wrote:

One thing that it would do though, is definitely discourage people from playing hard content after leveling up.
You just ding lvl 91 ? 'Hey, maybe I'm going to try shaper now !' which is a fight that needs learning, and usually dying quite a lot first ( or at least a bunch of times ) ... but with a stacking debuff ?
People are going to play hard content even less, way less imo.

I'd say that entirely depends on how the debuff works in detail, mainly how high it stacks and how fast you can get rid of it. But yeah, postponing harder content until the next level up would still be a thing which is why I'd prefer an entirely different system anyway.

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Fruz wrote:

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C4Guy wrote:

How about we make the amount of portals a basic map mod like rarity, quality and pack size and the average amount is more like 2 or 3 instead of 6 for solo play? In return, a portal only disappears if you die, not if you leave to sell stuff, etc.

Two birds, one stone...

As much as I consider party play to be extremely poor in PoE ... it's still a multiplayer game, I don't think that solo exclusive rule should ever be a thing ( SSF leagues are different, players were already there to begin with ).

I didn't mean this to be a solo exclusive, just to put the portal numbers in perspective. There should be more portals when playing with others, perhaps everyone should have their own set only they can use.

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Fruz wrote:

By the way, a portal not disappearing when you just leave the map would be a huge gate to abusing portaling in/out, when you watch streamers, players with very good gaming setups + good reflex can go through the portal in less than a second so ...

You've got a point there, this should be addressed e. g. by disabling portal cast/use completely when enemies are nearby or by limiting "portal saving" to when the area is clear.

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C4Guy wrote:

As I said, it would greatly reduce the impact of occasional deaths from one-shots, disconnects, game freezes, etc. because the XP loss would be much less for the first death and the average player shouldn't have a problem staying alive until the debuff is gone. Those who die frequently will of course have more or less the same situation than before but that's what the death penalty should be there for, isn't it?

with something like (n+1)²%, I guess that would have this effect indeed, which could (likely) be a good thing.


Still, I would expect more or less the same situation around here, most of the people complaining about the penalty would still complain all the same I think :)

People dying quite a lot would hit the soft cap even earlier though ( which might not be a bad thing ).
But numbers can be tweaked after all.