Spectre chest insanity.

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Shieldbreaker wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

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since OP asked for it - here. just one of many. this was page 10.

Yes, I see a bunch of text, but I must be stupid, since I can't see an argument in there.

you said it.

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robmafia wrote:

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Shieldbreaker wrote:

Great, you should have no issues whatsoever presenting your argument then!

ok. it will be my next post. it will look very familiar.

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Shieldbreaker wrote:

As for Legion, I do not play actively currently, but if you can get me a rare vaal regalia with +1 spectres I will gladly give you up to my 50 exalted orbs in standard. Since it only takes 10 hours, you can easily deliver on it. Full 50 exalted for above Vis Mortis ES values, 10+ for any rare vaal regalia with +1 spectre on it.

...umm...

do you really play? 50 ex is... not much. on standard, it's pretty much nothing. one can make that in ~1 hour pretty easily by simply not being afk.

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Shieldbreaker wrote:

Matter of fact, since you are convinced it is so easy, why not stream the process of finding it, or, better yet, go delve ssf for a bit?

i didn't say finding it. the game isn't balanced around ssf, you know...

that said, you don't play ssf, anyway.

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Shieldbreaker wrote:

Since the game is so easy with everything being overpowered, and it only taking 10 hours of delve to get the item, it should be a pushover. Of course, I will gadly reimburse you for the 10-20 hours it will take with, say, 20 exalted orbs on top of the 50 for the chest? Heck, I can bump it up to a mirror, you ssf get a +1 spectre rare vaal regalia/astral plate/zodiac leather by Legion end , I will get you a mirror. 10-20 hours for a mirror, you are getting the deal of a lifetime!

dude, you think i care about 50 ex or even 1 mirror... and on standard? are you serious?

the irony is overwhelming. you apparently care about standard currency, play on standard, pretend to have mirror+ of currency, but are seriously pretending you can't get a +1 spectre chestpiece on standard? come on, man.

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robmafia wrote:

you said it.

So, please, point out your argument, and explain it in simple terms.

And I did not claim I was stupid. I was hoping you would understand from pragmatic context that I wanted for you to point out and mayhaps paraphrase your argument.

EDIT: Also, I know you lack social intelligence, but it is extremely rude to double down on someones self-depreciation.

My eternal arguments to why the +1 spectre chest should be more available, If you quote my post please provide actual thought out arguments.

A headhunter is easier to get and actually much more common than a chest with the +1 spectre mod, And vastly more powerful.

You can farm for an entire league and never get or even get a chance at finding this armour, Even with a full party of people dedicated to finding it the above statement is still true.

Leaving the vis mortis actually reduces minion damage, anyone bringing up the vis mortis is discounting this fact entirely, You lose 15% minion damage + 30% of physical added as extra chaos damage.

Crafting on the armour is one of the heaviest RNG battles in crafting in the game especially if you even dare to anull it down to create a multimod, a lvl 28 gem bow is much more powerful and much easier to achieve giving insane dps where as this armour does nothing even close to that.

The midnight bargain has no place in this thread as an argument as it is not for life based builds and one of the reasons people would go for the rare spectre armour would be for a life based build, Using the MB is directly counter intuitive to this, That aside this is about enabling all spectre builds not just life.

Totem builds can average 4 totems all the way up to 5(6 on heirophant/scion) at relatively no cost outside of 5+ taking out the possibility of using a 2hander if you aren't again (herio/scion) this rare shield mod is available despite the unique shield giving +1 to totems, This calls back to the vis mortis arguments and completely nullifies them.

The only instance in which this armour mod can be considered OP over the vis mortis in any sense is a Vaal Regalia which buffs ES builds allowing for use of a midnight bargain at a low cost to survival and even then the difficulty of crafting on it again is among the most difficult in the game presently also requiring a unique shield to cancel out the chaos bypassing your shield.

If any more thoughts occur to me i'll post them here.

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Shieldbreaker wrote:

So, please, point out your argument, and explain it in simple terms.

...again? see pages 1-13

tl;dr - what you want is grossly imbalanced. your arguments for said imbalance revolves around OTHER incredibly imbalanced builds (most often, cyclone) and exploits - including snapshotting (which you actually complained about being fixed). your argument is for spectre builds to be just as broken as cyclone - as if every skill/build should be just brokenly OP. there have been (iirc) ZERO comparisons to any skill/build that isn't OP (and i think it's only been cyclone and totems) - ie: 95% or so of skills - including other summoner skills. except to complain about them... which pretty much defeats the purpose. (ie: you want OP snapshotting spectres with +1 spectre rare items in every possible slot - and you think this is fair somehow. while thinking the other summoner skills are even weaker). OP skills/affixes shouldn't be a baseline - especially when referring to standard/legacy.

further, you want the base game AND leagues to be balanced around standard self-found. which not only makes zero sense, but the game has never been balanced around either - and with many stated reasons for such (even by chris, himself).

further still, you attempted to support your stance with outright falsehoods. ie: calling the mod mandatory, claiming that no one uses 4 spectres, saying a gg rare chest with this mod isn't stronger than vis mortis, etc.

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robmafia wrote:

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Shieldbreaker wrote:

So, please, point out your argument, and explain it in simple terms.

...again? see pages 1-13

tl;dr - what you want is grossly imbalanced. your arguments for said imbalance revolves around OTHER incredibly imbalanced builds (most often, cyclone) and exploits - including snapshotting (which you actually complained about being fixed). your argument is for spectre builds to be just as broken as cyclone - as if every skill/build should be just brokenly OP. there have been (iirc) ZERO comparisons to any skill/build that isn't OP (and i think it's only been cyclone and totems) - ie: 95% or so of skills - including other summoner skills. except to complain about them... which pretty much defeats the purpose. (ie: you want OP snapshotting spectres with +1 spectre rare items in every possible slot - and you think this is fair somehow. while thinking the other summoner skills are even weaker). OP skills/affixes shouldn't be a baseline - especially when referring to standard/legacy.

further, you want the base game AND leagues to be balanced around standard self-found. which not only makes zero sense, but the game has never been balanced around either - and with many stated reasons for such (even by chris, himself).

further still, you attempted to support your stance with outright falsehoods. ie: calling the mod mandatory, claiming that no one uses 4 spectres, saying a gg rare chest with this mod isn't stronger than vis mortis, etc.

Please elaborate in more words than "vis mortis" on how having the chest armour mod being less rare is grossly imbalanced.

Also this is only about the Chest Armour and specifically the rarity of it, not having +1 spectre mod on every slot, Note the thread title.

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robmafia wrote:

tl;dr - what you want is grossly imbalanced. your arguments for said imbalance revolves around OTHER incredibly imbalanced builds (most often, cyclone) and exploits - including snapshotting (which you actually complained about being fixed). your argument is for spectre builds to be just as broken as cyclone - as if every skill/build should be just brokenly OP. there have been (iirc) ZERO comparisons to any skill/build that isn't OP (and i think it's only been cyclone and totems) - ie: 95% or so of skills - including other summoner skills. except to complain about them... which pretty much defeats the purpose. (ie: you want OP snapshotting spectres with +1 spectre rare items in every possible slot - and you think this is fair somehow. while thinking the other summoner skills are even weaker). OP skills/affixes shouldn't be a baseline - especially when referring to standard/legacy.

further, you want the base game AND leagues to be balanced around standard self-found. which not only makes zero sense, but the game has never been balanced around either - and with many stated reasons for such (even by chris, himself).

further still, you attempted to support your stance with outright falsehoods. ie: calling the mod mandatory, claiming that no one uses 4 spectres, saying a gg rare chest with this mod isn't stronger than vis mortis, etc.

Great, a lot of misinformation, strawman and ad-hominem, but at least something close to an argument.

Grossly imbalanced: false, it is already in game. The imbalance is, in my opinion, that it requires so many times more effort than similar strength endgame chests for other builds.

Imbalanced builds like cyclone: false, while the chest piece being less rare would boost up spectre summoner power levels, it would definitely not put it up to cyclone tier dps (20m+ in edge cases, compared to ~500k-1m per spectre), it would boost survivability a bit, especially for life-based summoners, especially if they also use armour/evasion. At 150% increased life a 120 life chest would give 300hp, a solid boost, but nothing phenomenal.

I do not want snapshotting back, I merely stated that it was the last time spectre/zombie summoners were meta, hence they could use a help in power boost, having been non-meta since 2014.

Op affixes being baseline: they already are, no one runs around with ilvl25 4xt7 chests... I am not proposing to add anything new to the game, I am proposing to bring summoner endgame chest availability in-line with other build endgame chest viablity. If you believe endgame chests (2-3x t1-2 + some resists + crafted mod) are op, so be it, but why is one builds op chest requiring 100x more time investment to acquire?

+spectres being mandatory to a spectre build is not a falsehood. You refused to show 2 spectre gameplay in T15, so you must agree. 4-5 spectre builds are struggling (~~0.5% playrate in Legion), let alone less spectre builds. If your argument is that spectres should be made individually more powerful, so 2 spectres are viable, and the rest should come with heavy sacrifices - that would be an interesting argument, but you should make a new thread for that.

A chest with this mod is not much stronger than Vis Mortis, it merely has higher defensive potential. To the best of my knowledge it is not possible to get unholy might/+1 spectre and minion damage on a rare chest, only +1 spectre. On the other hand, you have the ability to add defensive/utility boons, such as life/more es/resists/+1 curse craft/etc. And with +1 curse on top of +1 spectre the chest might be overpowered, hence my suggestion to make it a crafting mod, so it would not stack with other crafting mods. Go to any league trade and try to find a +1 spectre chest with higher ES than Vis Mortis. Essentially impossible, does not exist. But can at least get some +life + resists.

I have no idea what you mean by no-one using 4 spectres. As far as I know the few players that play spectres typically use 3 to 5 of them, with 4 being a common sight.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

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Shieldbreaker wrote:

So, please, point out your argument, and explain it in simple terms.

...again? see pages 1-13

tl;dr - what you want is grossly imbalanced. your arguments for said imbalance revolves around OTHER incredibly imbalanced builds (most often, cyclone) and exploits - including snapshotting (which you actually complained about being fixed). your argument is for spectre builds to be just as broken as cyclone - as if every skill/build should be just brokenly OP. there have been (iirc) ZERO comparisons to any skill/build that isn't OP (and i think it's only been cyclone and totems) - ie: 95% or so of skills - including other summoner skills. except to complain about them... which pretty much defeats the purpose. (ie: you want OP snapshotting spectres with +1 spectre rare items in every possible slot - and you think this is fair somehow. while thinking the other summoner skills are even weaker). OP skills/affixes shouldn't be a baseline - especially when referring to standard/legacy.

further, you want the base game AND leagues to be balanced around standard self-found. which not only makes zero sense, but the game has never been balanced around either - and with many stated reasons for such (even by chris, himself).

further still, you attempted to support your stance with outright falsehoods. ie: calling the mod mandatory, claiming that no one uses 4 spectres, saying a gg rare chest with this mod isn't stronger than vis mortis, etc.

Please elaborate in more words than "vis mortis" on how having the chest armour mod being less rare is grossly imbalanced.

...aside from the more life/es/defenses/resistances/stats/etc? i mean, aside from having the primary 'unique' mod with no downsides whatsoever... yeah, aside from everything, it's fine, i guess.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Also this is only about the Chest Armour and specifically the rarity of it, not having +1 spectre mod on every slot, Note the thread title.

hence, what i said. see the highlighted word.
and the boots are relevant to this for what should be super obvious reasons.

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Shieldbreaker wrote:

Great, a lot of misinformation, strawman and ad-hominem,

and yet, you didn't/won't cite a single instance of any. gee, i wonder why?

lolz @ strawman. i generally quoted these things numerously.
uberlolz @ ad-hom - zero insults were in that post.

still waiting for you to support your accusation of misquoting, btw. you... cited absolutely nothing to support that, either.

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Shieldbreaker wrote:

Grossly imbalanced: false, it is already in game.

which means nothing. so was snapshotting. so is cyclone. being in the game doesn't mean it's balanced. further, the scarcity is perhaps the only thing coming close to reining this in.

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Shieldbreaker wrote:

The imbalance is, in my opinion, that it requires so many times more effort than similar strength endgame chests for other builds.

which means nothing on standard. also, your basis of comparison isn't power, or affixes, or etc - it's based on your effort to drop one. which is laughable as a measure of GAME balance. especially in a game based on economics.

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Shieldbreaker wrote:

Imbalanced builds like cyclone: false,

aaaaaaaaand i'm going to stop you there. try again.

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Shieldbreaker wrote:

I do not want snapshotting back, I merely stated that it was the last time spectre/zombie summoners were meta

which is a joke and thoroughly disputed by others here. remember golemancers? they were everywhere for 2 leagues.

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Shieldbreaker wrote:

Op affixes being baseline: they already are,

false, as evident by this thread.

also, OP affixes should be removed, anyway - making this a moot point. pick your poison.

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Shieldbreaker wrote:

I am not proposing to add anything new to the game

bs, you literally proposed adding a bench mod.

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Shieldbreaker wrote:

+spectres being mandatory to a spectre build is not a falsehood. You refused to show 2 spectre gameplay in T15, so you must agree.

fallacy: jump to conclusions
also: i have no burden to show you gameplay. wtf?
also: 2 =/= 4 (which was the argument). or 5, which you also claimed.

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Shieldbreaker wrote:

A chest with this mod is not much stronger than Vis Mortis, it merely has higher defensive potential.

blatant contradiction: teal objectively refutes pink.

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robmafia wrote:

...aside from the more life/es/defenses/resistances/stats/etc? i mean, aside from having the primary 'unique' mod with no downsides whatsoever... yeah, aside from everything, it's fine, i guess.

You're clearly avoiding the 15% minion damage and 30% of phys added as chaos by the vis mortis, Sure defensive stats Can be gained but its at a cost and not only that the +1 totem on shield is significantly easier to get, Easier to craft with and takes the user above the average max of 4, The chest Armour mod does not do this.

This is a trade-off not a literal and easy to obtain upgrade.

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robmafia wrote:

hence, what i said. see the highlighted word.
and the boots are relevant to this for what should be super obvious reasons.

Well feel free to comment on how the boots pertain to this conversation at all, Again the boots do not let you exceed the average count of spectres, This topic is about the chest Armour and its general rarity.