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Destructodave wrote:
I personally dont have a problem with what GGG does. I play enough other f2p games and even mobile games that stash pages dont bother me. Its par for the course of F2p games. But it is P2W to an extent. Anyone arguing against it I dont understand. Its like people are getting ultra defensive about their own purchases or GGG themselves. If a game offers stuff for you to buy, you aren't a scumbag because you buy it, lol. Its ok. I can spend 100 bucks in a mobile game that offers it if I so choose and it doesnt make me less of a person or the game less of a good game.
Also, I really dont wanna argue semantics about whether you are "winning" or not. I can buy all the pages I want and still have the wherewithal to know that its a form of P2W becuase it does give advantages/QoL/etc that players of the base game do not get. Just like if I played Warframe and used my platinum to speed up my warframe build from 3 days to instant. There's nothing to win there, I just get it faster.
I mean by your definition, then people doing RMT off-site shouldn't bother anyone either. Since no one is winning. But people have a real issue with RMAH/RMT, etc. Even though there is zero winning, zero competition, zero reason to even make the purchases.
Your definition makes it impossible for games to sell anything. By your definition, anything and everything whatsoever is PEE TWO DUBBLEYOO, including cosmetics - which are a feature that improves your enjoyment of the game and the quality of your gameplay by letting you feel better about your character's appearance.
Your definition is being rejected because it's functionally useless - your words could be stretched to include the base price of a buy-to-play game, since you can only 'win' a game you have access to playing.
Third-party RMT damages the company's own sales and reduces the experience for everyone in the game, on top of most third-party RMT 'companies' basically being slavehouses where people in absolutely horrible conditions play video games according to documented Maximum profit procedure for sixteen hours a day for scant pay. Frankly I can dig games where the developer themselves implements a game cash to cash shop exchange, a'la Guild Wars 2 and similar. But again - they built that system in themselves, they monitor it and ensure everything's on the up-and-up.
RMT sites...don't.
She/Her
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Posted by1453R#7804on May 14, 2019, 3:50:33 PM
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Destructodave wrote:
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DarthSki44 wrote:
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Albinosaurus wrote:
Stash tabs are a gameplay feature. You can purchase them. That's p2w in a nutshell. No amount of excuse-making or euphemism will change that.
That's a bit murky though. What exactly are you winning if another player isnt involved? That was my point. Technically anything is winning, and if that's true, then nothing is.
My basic opinion is that in the grand scheme you cant have P2W in a PvE game simply because:
A. You cant win anything
B. If you somehow believe you can win something, that something is totally different for everyone.
If you dont see the inherent problem in defining it that way, then you are basically advocating for a total genocide of all F2P, Mobile, and any games that have even the smallest mtx/dlc. (Which would involve nearly every game this decade)
It's not feasible.
I personally dont have a problem with what GGG does. I play enough other f2p games and even mobile games that stash pages dont bother me. Its par for the course of F2p games. But it is P2W to an extent. Anyone arguing against it I dont understand. Its like people are getting ultra defensive about their own purchases or GGG themselves. If a game offers stuff for you to buy, you aren't a scumbag because you buy it, lol. Its ok. I can spend 100 bucks in a mobile game that offers it if I so choose and it doesnt make me less of a person or the game less of a good game.
Also, I really dont wanna argue semantics about whether you are "winning" or not. I can buy all the pages I want and still have the wherewithal to know that its a form of P2W becuase it does give advantages/QoL/etc that players of the base game do not get. Just like if I played Warframe and used my platinum to speed up my warframe build from 3 days to instant. There's nothing to win there, I just get it faster.
I mean by your definition, then people doing RMT off-site shouldn't bother anyone either. Since no one is winning. But people have a real issue with RMAH/RMT, etc. Even though there is zero winning, zero competition, zero reason to even make the purchases.
There is a decent amount to unwrap here but I will focus on a couple of points just for sanity sake.
1. In-game currency that can also be purchased and traded for, muddies the water even further. In Warframe you can trade items for plat that you find in the wild. Thus whatever you use it for is your business. I find it hard to get to that p2w point in Warframe or similar games with obtainable premium currency. You cant get GGG points without buying them, so it's a unfair comparison.
2. The semantics about winning is exactly the point of why its inherently problematic. People dislike RMT because they feel like it cheapens the "value" of their item or gameplay. To some, like the entire SSF league for example, RMT means nothing.
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
- Abraham Lincoln Last edited by DarthSki44#6905 on May 14, 2019, 4:07:51 PM
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Posted byDarthSki44#6905on May 14, 2019, 4:07:20 PMOn Probation
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Frostride wrote:
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codetaku wrote:
As much as I hate Pay to Win mechanics, regulating them legally makes absolutely no sense at all without also regulating every trading card game ever.
There are also countries that ban loot boxes as gambling but if they still allow Magic: the Gathering then it's just inherently nonsensical as a law. It's like the pinnacle of old people having absolutely no idea what they are doing or talking about.
Don't really agree with this. If you want specific cards, buy them from stores. If you want an equal playing field, draft. If you just want to have fun with friends, buy pre-made decks. You can even buy challenger decks if you want to do FNM or enter other somewhat competitive play.
Calling boosters lootboxes is honestly dumb. The cards are very real and have actual value. There are multiple ways to not go for boosters and still play and enjoy MTG. And if you do go for boosters, there are tons of reviews about how to best spend your money to get a fairly good part of your money back by selling the cards you got.
In particular the really expensive decks are not made by buying boosters. The tournament play is also not enabled by the players buying boosters. All this revolves around stores selling individual cards; this is a risk at a business level and will never be banned.
Wizards of the Coast doesn't sell you individual cards though. That's a secondary market.
Also, the ban on lootboxes would also apply even if the results of those lootboxes became tradeable.
So your argument pretty much falls apart instantly at the slightest introduction of actual logic.
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Posted bycodetaku#0468on May 14, 2019, 4:11:08 PMOn Probation
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DarthSki44 wrote:
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Albinosaurus wrote:
Stash tabs are a gameplay feature. You can purchase them. That's p2w in a nutshell. No amount of excuse-making or euphemism will change that.
That's a bit murky though. What exactly are you winning if another player isnt involved? That was my point. Technically anything is winning, and if that's true, then nothing is.
My basic opinion is that in the grand scheme you cant have P2W in a PvE game simply because:
A. You cant win anything
B. If you somehow believe you can win something, that something is totally different for everyone.
If you dont see the inherent problem in defining it that way, then you are basically advocating for a total genocide of all F2P, Mobile, and any games that have even the smallest mtx/dlc. (Which would involve nearly every game this decade)
It's not feasible.
You really should have read the whole thing instead of trying to cherry-pick. Let me reiterate:
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It's not about the "winning," it's about whether it affects gameplay. Period.
Tired of trolls? Ignore them.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1473168
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Posted byAlbinosaurus#7360on May 14, 2019, 4:24:48 PM
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Albinosaurus wrote:
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DarthSki44 wrote:
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Albinosaurus wrote:
Stash tabs are a gameplay feature. You can purchase them. That's p2w in a nutshell. No amount of excuse-making or euphemism will change that.
That's a bit murky though. What exactly are you winning if another player isnt involved? That was my point. Technically anything is winning, and if that's true, then nothing is.
My basic opinion is that in the grand scheme you cant have P2W in a PvE game simply because:
A. You cant win anything
B. If you somehow believe you can win something, that something is totally different for everyone.
If you dont see the inherent problem in defining it that way, then you are basically advocating for a total genocide of all F2P, Mobile, and any games that have even the smallest mtx/dlc. (Which would involve nearly every game this decade)
It's not feasible.
You really should have read the whole thing instead of trying to cherry-pick. Let me reiterate:
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It's not about the "winning," it's about whether it affects gameplay. Period.
That's exactly my point. How it effects gameplay, many people equate to winning. Its different for everyone and mostly why it can get contentious at times.
Again me personally, I dont think you can P2W in a PvE game, but I do understand some gamers have "feelings" about this stuff. I just disagree with regards to this game type. (PvE)
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
- Abraham Lincoln
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Posted byDarthSki44#6905on May 14, 2019, 4:34:24 PMOn Probation
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DarthSki44 wrote:
I dont think you can P2W in a PvE game
Of course you can. A single player game can also have P2W.
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Posted byWhaleBusiness#7168on May 14, 2019, 4:48:32 PM
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PvE has nothing to do with it. In fact, the most egregious forms of P2W tend to happen in PvE games rather than PvP, but it happens in both.
Tired of trolls? Ignore them.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1473168
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Posted byAlbinosaurus#7360on May 14, 2019, 5:09:31 PM
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WhaleBusiness wrote:
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DarthSki44 wrote:
I dont think you can P2W in a PvE game
Of course you can. A single player game can also have P2W.
I have no words.
EDIT: Clearly some people are in different worlds when it comes to P2W definitions.
I mean wow. Winning in single player? Really? (Heres a tip, you always win, becuase no one else literally can)
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
- Abraham Lincoln Last edited by DarthSki44#6905 on May 14, 2019, 5:15:12 PM
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Posted byDarthSki44#6905on May 14, 2019, 5:11:24 PMOn Probation
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Since my actual post was lost in submission leaving just a quote...
It's clear that there are people arguing that basically anything non-cosmetic is P2W, are also the people that fail to grasp why P2W is such a dirty dirty word.
It seems that we were largely successful in preventing those game types from getting a foothold in our markets - so much so that people equate supporting a service provided automatically falls under pay to win.
Imagine if these folks had to deal with shareware and dial-up.
Yep, totally over league play. Last edited by SeCKSEgai#6175 on May 14, 2019, 5:34:13 PM
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Posted bySeCKSEgai#6175on May 14, 2019, 5:25:01 PM
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Albinosaurus wrote:
PvE has nothing to do with it. In fact, the most egregious forms of P2W tend to happen in PvE games rather than PvP, but it happens in both.
Endulge me in these egregious P2W PvE games, and what it is you exactly are paying to win. I honestly like hearing these examples, and it provides additional clarity on a point of view I totally disagree with.
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
- Abraham Lincoln
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Posted byDarthSki44#6905on May 14, 2019, 5:29:36 PMOn Probation
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