A broad P2W definition in law would paint premium stash tabs P2W

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1453R wrote:

Notice nobody ever complains about an account having limited character slots, because Grinding Gear was unusually generous in doling out free slots.

That's because character slots doesn't interfere much with the game play. Most players sticks to one single character so I would say that the character slots are too many. They are still p2w, but clearly GGG hasn't designed the game around having lots of characters.

Stash tabs obviously is the complete opposite. Crafted inconvinience intended to slow down the players while rewarding the payers. Your whole "argument" boils down to insults and nonsensical conclusions.

Embarrassing.

My argument boils down to the fact that I understand how these games work just a bit better than the average forum idiot, and that paying for time is not paying to win in a game where time is not a commodity of victory. 'Winning', in Path of Exile, refers to being able to do endgame content and high-end bosses. Nothing in their cash shop assists with this no matter how much people want to twist premium tabs into somehow being a Sin Against All Modern Man and how the entirety of the Grinding Gear team and their entire families should be arrested and imprisoned until the end of time because they dared to sell something people might want to buy.

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1453R wrote:

My argument boils down to the fact that I understand how these games work just a bit better than the average forum idiot

How humble.

Also your definition of "winning" in PoE is purely subjective. There are collectors, traders, completionists, wealth builders, guild leaders, crafters, and many other types of players that dont consider "bossing" as winning.

Typically winning is between players in a PvP setting. Discussing P2W in a PvE environment is really quite the stretch.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

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Typically winning is between players in a PvP setting. Discussing P2W in a PvE environment is really quite the stretch.

Then why are we all doing it?

What does it bloody matter? If you can't imagine life without a premium tab to trade with then get one. If you refuse to spend money on Path of Exile for whatever reason (which is absolutely a valid choice in many cases), then don't get one. But this constant whining over premium tabs being Evil Cheating Baby-Eating PEE TWO DUBBLYOO and an absolute mandatory feature of the game is ridiculous bullhonkey.

One premium tab costs less than a cup of Starbucks. If you refuse to spend money on TencentGGG, then pick which principle you want to stand by and stand by it. Quit bitching about PEE TWO DUBBLYOO as an excuse to try and con the devs into giving y'all free shit.

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1453R wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

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Typically winning is between players in a PvP setting. Discussing P2W in a PvE environment is really quite the stretch.

Then why are we all doing it?

What does it bloody matter? If you can't imagine life without a premium tab to trade with then get one. If you refuse to spend money on Path of Exile for whatever reason (which is absolutely a valid choice in many cases), then don't get one. But this constant whining over premium tabs being Evil Cheating Baby-Eating PEE TWO DUBBLYOO and an absolute mandatory feature of the game is ridiculous bullhonkey.

One premium tab costs less than a cup of Starbucks. If you refuse to spend money on TencentGGG, then pick which principle you want to stand by and stand by it. Quit bitching about PEE TWO DUBBLYOO as an excuse to try and con the devs into giving y'all free shit.

I guess you missed my point.

If the game is all or mostly PvE, anyone insisting that's its P2W (which I think is ridiculous) is hard to grasp considering "winning" can mean almost anything.

He always misses the point. It's Rule 1 of "How to White Knight."

Stash tabs are a gameplay feature. You can purchase them. That's p2w in a nutshell. No amount of excuse-making or euphemism will change that.

That said, I'm okay with it and wouldn't mind a few other p2w "QoL" features in the game if they were well implemented and reasonably priced; such as the ability to start new characters at the Epilogue, lvl 70, and either choose which quests to complete in what way or just have all the waypoints so I can do them at my convenience--this after having done so on at least one character each new league (to protect the integrity of racing). I would not be okay with this on a per character basis, but only as a one-time account upgrade, and I'd pay up to $30 USD for that upgrade.

It all comes down to how they are implemented and if they are particularly nefarious/predatory or just "QoL," but it is p2w in either case. You can't convince someone that non-cosmetic MTX isn't p2w just because you have an arbitrary definition of "winning." It's not about the "winning," it's about whether it affects gameplay. Period.

I grasp your point just fine. Nobody else in this thread does. I mean for fuck's sake, the thread is titled "A Broad P2W Definition In Law Would Paint Premium Stash Tabs P2W". That is utter nonsense, and exists only because some people are butthurt to levels I cannot readily comprehend over Grinding Gear wanting to be paid for their game.

Now, I absolutely understand not wanting to do the paying ever since they sold out to Tencent. I don't exactly want to fund Chinese EA-cum-Skynet either, it's one of the most morally dubious companies in the world in one of the most morally dubious countries in the world and I want absolutely nothing to do with it. Grinding Gear has to work enormously harder for my money these days than they used to, and they don't get it remotely as often as they once did. But this particular argument - that a premium stash tab represents an unfair advantage over someone without a premium stash tab and should thus be reclassified as Most Foul PEE TWO DUBBLEYOO until and unless everyone gets a premium tab for free - is fucking horse piss and I'm sick of it.

Now, ask me if I think every account should have a premium tab to start with? I'd actually say yes - if a qualified yes, and more as a Free Sample than as an avoidance of PEE TWO DUBBLEYOO. Some players are total cheapasses and would take that one single premium tab as the only one they ever obtain, yes. Those guys were never going to be customers anyways. Showing the playerbase as a whole how cool premium tabs are with their very own introductory tab would potentially increase sales of premium tabs quite a bit, whilst also getting rid of this godawful stupid argument. The problem, of course, is mule accounts. Giving everybody one free premium tab as a sample is great. Giving people forty-five free premium tabs because they register a new account for the game every week to get around their increasing ban rates for Mule Herding is less cool, and a definite argument against a free premium tab for everybody. But that could be dealt with, and frankly item crunch has gotten bad enough that the game could do with giving everybody five tabs instead of four to start with.

Nobody ever makes the argument of how it might be good business sense, though. Nobody ever talks about whether or not Path of Exile might be a better game if everybody had basic access to the trade API or whether it makes fiscal sense. Nah. They only ever screech and squeal and caterwaul and rabble-rouse and threaten legal action or threaten to Quit Forever(TM).

Because people are stupid, and I don't know why I bloody deal with them anymore.

The proposed law regards loot boxes and how they are gambling and should be illegal when minors do it.

Anyone that thinks this is going anywhere with a ridiculous US Congress needs to think again anyway.

Stash tabs are not gambling. They are a straight up purchase. You pay for something that you want. No resemblance to loot box gambling whatsoever. Even if they are pay to win. No one is talking about making p2w or p2p games illegal. It is the gambling with minors that it is directed at.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

Stash tabs are a gameplay feature. You can purchase them. That's p2w in a nutshell. No amount of excuse-making or euphemism will change that.

That's a bit murky though. What exactly are you winning if another player isnt involved? That was my point. Technically anything is winning, and if that's true, then nothing is.

My basic opinion is that in the grand scheme you cant have P2W in a PvE game simply because:

A. You cant win anything
B. If you somehow believe you can win something, that something is totally different for everyone.

If you dont see the inherent problem in defining it that way, then you are basically advocating for a total genocide of all F2P, Mobile, and any games that have even the smallest mtx/dlc. (Which would involve nearly every game this decade)

It's not feasible.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

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Albinosaurus wrote:

Stash tabs are a gameplay feature. You can purchase them. That's p2w in a nutshell. No amount of excuse-making or euphemism will change that.

That's a bit murky though. What exactly are you winning if another player isnt involved? That was my point. Technically anything is winning, and if that's true, then nothing is.

My basic opinion is that in the grand scheme you cant have P2W in a PvE game simply because:

A. You cant win anything
B. If you somehow believe you can win something, that something is totally different for everyone.

If you dont see the inherent problem in defining it that way, then you are basically advocating for a total genocide of all F2P, Mobile, and any games that have even the smallest mtx/dlc. (Which would involve nearly every game this decade)

It's not feasible.

I personally dont have a problem with what GGG does. I play enough other f2p games and even mobile games that stash pages dont bother me. Its par for the course of F2p games. But it is P2W to an extent. Anyone arguing against it I dont understand. Its like people are getting ultra defensive about their own purchases or GGG themselves. If a game offers stuff for you to buy, you aren't a scumbag because you buy it, lol. Its ok. I can spend 100 bucks in a mobile game that offers it if I so choose and it doesnt make me less of a person or the game less of a good game.

Also, I really dont wanna argue semantics about whether you are "winning" or not. I can buy all the pages I want and still have the wherewithal to know that its a form of P2W becuase it does give advantages/QoL/etc that players of the base game do not get. Just like if I played Warframe and used my platinum to speed up my warframe build from 3 days to instant. There's nothing to win there, I just get it faster.

I mean by your definition, then people doing RMT off-site shouldn't bother anyone either. Since no one is winning. But people have a real issue with RMAH/RMT, etc. Even though there is zero winning, zero competition, zero reason to even make the purchases.