To everyone whos scared of power creep

denies that implicits/enchants/abyssal jewels/ascendancies/fossils/bench mods/etc are available to all.

says i'm blocked... STILL REPLIES, ANYWAY.

poe 2019!

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alhazred70 wrote:

1% of the player base kills end game bosses.

Power creep might suck for the 1% but I doubt the other 99% are worried too much. My guess is GGG knows they can't ignore the fact that 80% of the players never progress past yellow maps (and only 70% into white maps). (numbers taken from GGG public statements from the past two years, mostly Chris on podcasts)

They have been unflinchingly and intentionally creeping the power of the players forward since Ascendancy. Wether you like that or not I seriously doubt they are going to pump the brakes when the people complaining that the game is too easy are always people playing meta builds and OP skills. OR The Project PT's of the community I.e. the unapologetic Masochists.

Currently playing Life based Melee phys only gladiator.. feels like I'm going to hit THE USUAL brick wall when i get to red maps on it, Vortex Cold snap was a faceroll... ofc it was. Stop using other peoples meta-gaming (which literally means someone else gamed the game for you and gave you the solutions) and the game doesn't feel easy at. fucking. all.

Am I defending Power creep? Sorta? Kinda? Yeah I guess... I recognize that it sucks to make the game easier for Mathil, and people like him that can make 5k life do Uber elder where I fail on 9k life. But I also recognize that the "sweet spot" the right balance of letting at least a high percentage of players using a good percentage of well made builds; feel powerful and have fun playing is still FAR FROM WHERE WE'RE AT RIGHT NOW.

Do a 300+ delve on a life based melee* build and then come tell us how trivial the game is and how power creep has ruined it. The truth is though they really aren't best served catering only to the 1% only the people who meta game and RMT their way to 50 exalts worth of gear (which lets face it is POE's dirty little secret).

inb4 the 1% insert their stories about how they downed Uber elder with 5 alchs of gear and 2 linked Vigilant Strike using a white Driftwood Sceptre.

* as always by melee I mean actual melee

Well, that shows that not the 'hard content' is the issue, rather it's the availability for newer players to progress towards it.
Just as a nudge, might have something to do with hindering new players to get the things they need in a timely and easy manner, options which 'better' players know how to use, but too convoluted for beginners to use.

Also it's not about killing uber-elder here, he unlocks what? Ah yes, a sextant, that's it, nothing else locked progression-wise behind him. The last major hurdle for actual progression is shaper, afterwards the main part is done. And shaper... he's easy by now.

So, to the issues described: Why do people not get beyond Kitava Act 10? Well, because the massive amount of players are casuals, hence the 70% number. Those players enjoy progressing steadily, upgrading their character, reaching a new place they haven't seen before, great.
Then the next 10% never reach yellow maps, why so? After coming to maps you'll actually need to care about maxing your res and building damage in the right way. Not only using additive measures, but also multiplicative ones to progress smoothly. Reaching yellow maps is doable with every crap-build in a matter of a single week, playing the game quite a bit, but definitely not 'overly much'.

So.. that leaves 20% who are stuck at yellow maps, red maps, before shaper or uber-elder.
What about those? 1% kills uber-elder, around 5% (I think it was something around that) kill shaper, the hurdle between both is fairly big already.
Having a mediocre build easily lets you perma-farm red maps, with the hindrance of map-drops this league, the progression was stretched out awfully, forcing those 95% of players to take even longer to reach their goal. Good choice there? 95% is a major number, those should be lifted upwards. So GGG screwed them.

On the other hand the leftover 5% are screwed by knowing how to build a character, either via time-issues (ok, that's no issue unless you want to go for achievements, you'll reach a nice goal anyway) or... disgruntled by the steady power-creep without offering new options to use it somewhere. That's annoying the other 5%, so once again, GGG screwing them.

No matter how you see it, the decisions made sense for nobody, everyone had a harder or less enjoable life in PoE, the contrary of what a game is supposed to be: fun, not frustrating.

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Scherge wrote:

the only reason we need players to become more powerful is because content gets more powerful too. It's a circle. It's always a cirle. And imo the circle starts where some players want harder end game.
So what if someday everyone makes it to red tier, if then there's ten more layers of more brutal end game?

I think all this leads to, is everything below a certain point becoming inconsequential like farming cobble stone in minecraft.

Quite some people complain already that farming up to maps is nothing but a formality that has to be done just because the number next to your portrait in the character sheet has to be around 75 in order for their pacing to make sense.
When was the last time you actually distiguished different enemy types while leveling? Mechanically they could all be walking, red targets you run past while blowing up screenloads of them. There is no deeper game design or immersion to be had there... and that's what slowly kills a game for me.

Yes, exactly, and that's why pacing needs to be reviewed. Mods on items rolling need to be adjusted so Act 1-10 are meaningful again. Mods on items afterwards need to be adjusted so progression for the 'common' player feels smooth, as well as rewarding for the 'invested' player. Both isn't the case right now. Content either is trivial, or unbeatable.

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Jennik wrote:

I play semi-seriously in SSF, which puts me in roughly the same ballpark as the casuals who play in trade leagues. A lot of what you mentioned might as well not exist for me. Double corruptions? Highest tier rolls on gear? Ultra-rare Betrayal mods? Yeah, I'm probably never going to use gear with any of that stuff.

I've used a ton of fossils. Nothing I've rolled with them was ever usable, even by SSF standards. Sure, enough other people use them that decent gear's out there for people in trade leagues to buy, but we're talking about casuals here. They're not typically the best people at understanding the market and saving up to buy great gear. From what I've heard Chris say over the years, the way casuals play is mostly SSF.

Don't even get me started on bullshit lab enchant RNG. That's a cancer that keeps growing larger every damn time they release new skills.

Almost all the power creep introduced to POE lands in the hands of a tiny percentage of the player base.

SSF is supposed to take a while. Also, doesn't it sound very 'off' to you that despite playing in a trade-league, the majority behaves like it's SSF? No issue present there?
Ask yourself why that's the case. Maybe some mechanic is immature compared to what it should be, or deliberate in hindering progression since GGG wasn't able to think up a proper solution, rather then such a destructive.

How about a proper trading implementation? How about proper guides telling people who reach milestones 'Well, now it's time to build up resistances, also 'xyz' for melee provides the most damage output when you upgrade it and 'xyz' for casters do'. Rather you're thrown into new content blindly having to figure it out.

Double-corruptions shouldn't be hard to farm, just tons of RNG, I'll get 3 per day if I focus on it, though it's very boring and not enjoyable in the least, doable though. It's an issue.
T1 rolls shouldn't be an issue in the least as well, the right combination should be. If you're unable to get a single T1 roll you're simply doing something wrong, or you haven't progressed towards the 'end-game' stage, stuck in the middle of the atlas.
Lab-enchants are outdated, the system needs to be reworked badly, simple there, absolutely right.

And no, power-creep isn't for the 'tiny amount'. Get a single elder/shaper base, roll a few chaos onto it and you'll have a good item.

Same with fossils, 20 tries on a belt basically guarantees an item otherwise not even remotely as good. You got to use the right combinations though, also not explained in the least in-game.

The information hurdle is off-putting, needs to be fixed and is a detriment to the game. 'Let's have the community figure it out' isn't working anymore with data-mining and wikis. And if you want to do something like that, well.. then make it a simple system, not a massively RNG and convoluted one where tons of luck are involved.

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Jennik wrote:

Seriously? Those are even more rare. How can you possibly be under the impression that casuals are running around with that gear? Good lord, man.

They are the most common item from the temple, I think 2 is guaranteed to drop from the omnitect each time, very easy to obtain.

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Jennik wrote:

I bid you good day forever. Please try to become a person worth interacting with.

He won't, he does the same crap in every threat, never providing proper answers, only half-assed ones. Relating to older threads which aren't relevant to the existing one. A common issue with rob sadly.

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Relating to older threads which aren't relevant to the existing one. A common issue with rob sadly.

...you posted in the thread i referred to. appx 50 times.

you did not read the thread you were posting in.

that is no one's fault but yours.

can we please stop the power creep, already? (or better - reverse it) (linked aforementioned power creep thread)

If anyone is interested in backing off of the flame war to get back on topic, OP raised the point that 'power creep' only matters to the players at the top.

That's kind of like saying that hitting the iceberg only mattered to the people at the front of the Titanic. It's a problem for everyone if the endgame becomes easier and easier to clear due to the existence of increasingly broken items, because it makes the game as a whole that much shallower. And to reuse my boat metaphor, the voices we all listen to SHOULD be the 1% of top players, because the people at the front of the ship are the ones best equipped to see the disaster before it arrives.

Item power creep in RPGs can be a good thing, but, and this is the important part, only when the endgame content is similarly scaled upwards to keep providing difficulty even with new levels of gear. The endgame of POE has not gotten any harder since Uber Elder was added a full year ago, and in that time we've added fossil crafting, veiled mods, the Focus mechanic, 7 mod Abyss jewels, and more. Uber Atziri was added FIVE YEARS AGO, and is still considered one of the toughest challenges the endgame has to offer! The difficulty of beating the Alluring Abyss now compared to doing so in Invasion/Ambush is absolutely laughable, and THAT is the problem with power creep that the top players are struggling to communicate.

Obligatory delve reference:

Op - you, like many others, fail to realize that power creep is defined as average power of player against average content, not against the tip of the iceberg.

Guess what - you can make the tip of iceberg as hard or tough as you want, but the AVERAGE content will STILL be crushed by builds that throw shit on the wall.

In 2013 average player power was such that it was tough mapping. white and magic mobs of certain type wojld actually be a problem. people farmed docks and then dried lake to gear up for maps

Since then, average player power grew exponentially but monster health remained nearly constant. An average player can powerlevel through shit barely paying attention.

Why GGG did is obvious. They want more people who don't have as much time or aren't playing a ton to get into mapping system, fairly high up too and get hooked

Again, the average player power went from pre-maps to low tier red maps. And red maps really aren't an issue either for verage builds as long as no crazy mods and no hard bosses.

Why do you think players cry foul about betrayal even though they've been castrated. Because players are used to kill everything that moves with one click. This is idiotic, and makes content uninteresting pile of goo that you just click without looking at.

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grepman wrote:

Op - you, like many others, fail to realize that power creep is defined as average power of player against average content, not against the tip of the iceberg.

I wasn't gonna jump in to this one because it's mostly fighting, but that is literally the exact opposite. Power creep is when you hit the end and slowly keep becoming more and more powerful. It has nothing to do at all with the average player. The average player will never get that stupid powerful gear, or will sheep it up using the broken meta build that doesn't need it to begin with.

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BloodPuddles420 wrote:

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grepman wrote:

Op - you, like many others, fail to realize that power creep is defined as average power of player against average content, not against the tip of the iceberg.

I wasn't gonna jump in to this one because it's mostly fighting, but that is literally the exact opposite. Power creep is when you hit the end and slowly keep becoming more and more powerful. It has nothing to do at all with the average player. The average player will never get that stupid powerful gear, or will sheep it up using the broken meta build that doesn't need it to begin with.

Yeah not a single person in this thread can even remotely make or afford these



hahaha more power is everything to people like nobody cares about the minority aka some of you like 5 of you who try to make things weaker and weaker.

Guess what the majority wants to be powerful and that's how it is until the end of time do you know why they keep growing power it's because people enjoy it.

Once more your voice isn't going to be heard and god dam that's a good thing.

That's the entire goal of an ARPG is to feel like a god dam super hero and that will never ever change regardless of outcome simply because you're the minority.

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BloodPuddles420 wrote:

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grepman wrote:

Op - you, like many others, fail to realize that power creep is defined as average power of player against average content, not against the tip of the iceberg.

I wasn't gonna jump in to this one because it's mostly fighting, but that is literally the exact opposite. Power creep is when you hit the end and slowly keep becoming more and more powerful. It has nothing to do at all with the average player. The average player will never get that stupid powerful gear, or will sheep it up using the broken meta build that doesn't need it to begin with.

...WAT

what's with this misconception that power creep is only 6t1 items?
ascendancy points are power creep. implicits are power creep. enchants are power creep. ffs.

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I_NO wrote:

Yeah not a single person in this thread can even remotely make or afford these

...lolwut?

please. i know you like trolling and patting yourself on the back in barely literate posts, but are you seriously pretending that i don't know how to farm/service/flip/craft?

if i played synthesis, i could make/buy them. same as the last... every league i played.

ironically, it's because of power creep that i stopped crafting.

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BloodPuddles420 wrote:

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grepman wrote:

Op - you, like many others, fail to realize that power creep is defined as average power of player against average content, not against the tip of the iceberg.

I wasn't gonna jump in to this one because it's mostly fighting, but that is literally the exact opposite. Power creep is when you hit the end and slowly keep becoming more and more powerful. It has nothing to do at all with the average player. The average player will never get that stupid powerful gear, or will sheep it up using the broken meta build that doesn't need it to begin with.

LOL no it isnt

Power creep is literally defined as the ratio of average player power against average content.

Hence why power creep makes old content obsolete. Sure, it happens at the top end as well (shaper is a pushover while it once was the most difficult and a certain poster in this thread referred to him as a 'raid' boss lol

You read my post and completely missed the point
Average player power in 2013 was such that most people who didn't know what theyre doing had troubles running low tier maps

Now people who don't know what they're doing Will steamroll white maps, yellow maps and likely low red tier maps

Seriously, if you think power creep only affects top end you're simp ly delusional. Sorry.

.

You want an example of horizontal (non power creep) design vs vertical (power creep) design?

Since many right now, myself included, are playing grim dawn xpansion, GD has a good example

GD autoscales mobs to your level so in ultimate content from act 2 is still relevant and can be scary (cronlwy nemesis killed a fe of my hc toons back in the day)

In poe, tons of content when it was scary as new content, got obsolete to the point of boredom unless you artificially impose crazy damage mods like in PTs league. What's the last time you got scared of evangelists? Caliga? Leaping frogs? Fucking dominus, for Christ's sake? Exactly.

Poeple always say leveling is a bore in poe. Yeah it is now, because literally nothing aside couple of bosses pose any threat to you.

Same with the lab
Uber izaro was actually scary when introduced first
Is he actually scary nowadays? Nope. A ton of builds one shot him without even trying

Agsin, im talking about average content (not top end) that becomes a boring checkmark instead of being relevant or interesting content

All because player is given a ton of more power with each iteration of the game, and old content isn't given anything to offset thst