Trickster Melee Rework v3.2 with Energy Shield and more trickery

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Legatus1982 wrote:

Well, let's start by identifying what the main problems are with hybrid es/ev:

1. can't invest in all 3 things (life, es, ev) because it just takes too many passives to do so
2. big hole in chaos damage defenses (tora instarip, any chaos map boss instarip, vaal constructs volley instarip, etc)
3. can't take acrobatics if you're relying on your ES
4. es is low and typically just "never there" in my experience
5. ev is too low to actually prevent any damage
5. big hole in phys spell "resist", even more so because you don't have phase acro
6. entire shadow corner of the tree sucks on life nodes in general

I'm not sure if I'm missing anything or maybe not identifying correctly the issues here but it's a starting point

1. You don't need to invest heavy in ES for the the rework.
2. Yes, big hole. High skill class intended to dunk on monsters, the trickster needs a challenge.
3. Acrobatics works with my rework.
4. You only need 1-2k with my rework, but can get by with like 900.
5. Don't get hit, high skill class.
6. Yes, high skill class intended for advanced players to get the most out of a full skill bar and high APM.

TY ^_^

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Legatus1982 wrote:

There are just fundamental problems with hybrid ES/anything that need to be solved by any kind of "hybrid es/X" ascendancy. EV/armor hybrid is mostly solved simply by taking iron reflexes.

I would always argue that fundamental problems should be solved at a fundamental level, not by individual ascendancies. It shouldn't be Trickster's job to justify using ES/Evasion gear, any more than it's Assassin's job to justify using crits or Chieftain's job to justify using fire damage.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

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Legatus1982 wrote:

There are just fundamental problems with hybrid ES/anything that need to be solved by any kind of "hybrid es/X" ascendancy. EV/armor hybrid is mostly solved simply by taking iron reflexes.

I would always argue that fundamental problems should be solved at a fundamental level, not by individual ascendancies. It shouldn't be Trickster's job to justify using ES/Evasion gear, any more than it's Assassin's job to justify using crits or Chieftain's job to justify using fire damage.

I would agree, but I doubt GGG is ever going to go that route.

The other unmentioned major problem with EV/ES I guess is that it lacks high-end mitigation other classes can get through ascendancy/uniques
Juggernaut: insane damage reductions of all kinds with nebuloch+acendancy+end charges, still gets high life pool, tons of chaos resist from end charges
ES: insane endgame ES levels, extra flasks, es recharges on its own uninterrupted with occultist, immune to chaos

EV/ES: low life pool, low ES pool, acro actively hurts ES, no endgame bonkers eHP items like nebuloch, no insane total ES levels, life nodes in upper right super scarce, life around acro super scarce, chaos resist huge hole

It's a wonder anybody even tries

Playing OP classes isn't ideal.

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EV/ES: low life pool, low ES pool, acro actively hurts ES, no endgame bonkers eHP items like nebuloch, no insane total ES levels, life nodes in upper right super scarce, life around acro super scarce, chaos resist huge hole

1. Low life pool. Yes, high skill class, make your own Trickster post if you are going to ignore everything and continue to paste your own ideas.

2. Less es pool. For the third time, the rework uses a low pool to their advantage with it's multiple states. The rework uses other sources of damage mitigation, and features misdirection skills. Sorry, but this class requires a full bar and high APM.

3. Save the endgame bonkers items for low skill players, the theme and identity of this character is to outplay your enemies with an impish arcanist's wile.

4. See 3, and the past several times I have responded to your idea.

5. Try an easier class.

6. Good.

I said show us what you got as in build your own trickster and see how it goes, rather than highjacking this post with your flat ES as identity pitches. Ty again ^_^

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Legatus1982 wrote:

I would agree, but I doubt GGG is ever going to go that route.

Hah, sure maybe not, but I intentionally don't make assessments of that :) I think a lot of suggestions forums would basically be silence if everyone only posted things they honestly expected the company to do. What GGG end up doing is always going to happen through their own internal thinking through of ideas anyway, so we may as well discuss what we actually believe is for the best.

I know nothing in the game exists in isolation and I'm certainly not trying to fault you for a holistic view, but I do think it's also important to consider like vs like without throwing other things into the mix - to keep in mind that if we're actually just comparing ES vs ES/Evasion, ES has no extra flasks, the same life pool, the same chaos vulnerability etc.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

The other unmentioned major problem with EV/ES I guess is that it lacks high-end mitigation other classes can get through ascendancy/uniques
Juggernaut: insane damage reductions of all kinds with nebuloch+acendancy+end charges, still gets high life pool, tons of chaos resist from end charges
ES: insane endgame ES levels, extra flasks, es recharges on its own uninterrupted with occultist, immune to chaos

EV/ES: low life pool, low ES pool, acro actively hurts ES, no endgame bonkers eHP items like nebuloch, no insane total ES levels, life nodes in upper right super scarce, life around acro super scarce, chaos resist huge hole

So ... any class but Occultist and Juggs are shit ?
How come is elementalist the most played class in SSF HC by quite a lot ?
And most of them aren't playing CI.

( Both are quite largely more represented in HC, but still are about a third of the population, meaning that two other thirds are playing something else )

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nooooodles wrote:

3. Save the endgame bonkers items for low skill players, the theme and identity of this character is to outplay your enemies with an impish arcanist's wile.

That isn't really the way of PoE though, the way of PoE is to get enough survivability and then tweak your setup to destroy everything with gross overkill damage.
Mechanical skill has always been pretty limited in PoE, even though top-players do have the "minimum requirement" that most others lack ( at least somewhat ), and pushing to more and more grinding makes playing PoE in a less 'skillfull' way, that's just the way it is.
This does not mean that you need a character that can survive any scenario and forgive any mistake of course, knowledge and skill ( to a certain extent ) are needed to know the limit of the characters and what are the obvious scenario to avoid.

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Fruz wrote:

Mechanical skill has always been pretty limited in PoE, even though top-players do have the "minimum requirement" that most others lack ( at least somewhat ), and pushing to more and more grinding makes playing PoE in a less 'skillfull' way, that's just the way it is.
This does not mean that you need a character that can survive any scenario and forgive any mistake of course, knowledge and skill ( to a certain extent ) are needed to know the limit of the characters and what are the obvious scenario to avoid.

This is one of the reasons I started this series. Having more mechanical skill oriented characters allow players to really "play the content" rather than steamroll everything. I am not going to gut the streamroller classes, but we need other classes that will allow us to actually play the game.

Most characters boil down to the same general gameplay- clear the screen before monsters can put up a fight. So in my series of reworks I address these problems at the fundamental level giving the players the tools they need to outplay monsters. This creates a more exciting experience, helps with powercreep, and gives streamers something more engaging to work with.

There will always be easy one tap characters, but now it's time to start expanding the depth of play and raising the skill ceiling enough to where you can actually experience the nuances of the different monsters and challenges.

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nooooodles wrote:

This is one of the reasons I started this series. Having more mechanical skill oriented characters allow players to really "play the content" rather than steamroll everything. I am not going to gut the streamroller classes, but we need other classes that will allow us to actually play the game.

Most characters boil down to the same general gameplay- clear the screen before monsters can put up a fight. So in my series of reworks I address these problems at the fundamental level giving the players the tools they need to outplay monsters. This creates a more exciting experience, helps with powercreep, and gives streamers something more engaging to work with.

Then you are just looking for a different game at this point.

You are not 'addressing' anything on the fundamental level, changing such things on the fundamental level would require the game to not allow players to pulverize the most of the screen in a second, and I don't quite see how we would go back to that ever, there will likely always be some builds capable of doing that.

Which means that you are proposing things that will by definition be inferior to the really 'good' builds, and asking for changes that are .... very unrealistic to be implemented by GGG imho.

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Fruz wrote:

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nooooodles wrote:

This is one of the reasons I started this series. Having more mechanical skill oriented characters allow players to really "play the content" rather than steamroll everything. I am not going to gut the streamroller classes, but we need other classes that will allow us to actually play the game.

Most characters boil down to the same general gameplay- clear the screen before monsters can put up a fight. So in my series of reworks I address these problems at the fundamental level giving the players the tools they need to outplay monsters. This creates a more exciting experience, helps with powercreep, and gives streamers something more engaging to work with.

Then you are just looking for a different game at this point.

You are not 'addressing' anything on the fundamental level, changing such things on the fundamental level would require the game to not allow players to pulverize the most of the screen in a second, and I don't quite see how we would go back to that ever, there will likely always be some builds capable of doing that.

Which means that you are proposing things that will by definition be inferior to the really 'good' builds, and asking for changes that are .... very unrealistic to be implemented by GGG imho.

I think you missed the point. Why go through all the effort in making a variety of monsters with a variety of skills if you're supposed to steamroll everything with one button?

As for "good builds" ask any oldschool RPG player. The goal of the RPG isn't to always play OP builds. Ask any seasoned RPG player how they feel about like the Draconic races. Or better yet, ask the dungeon master how he feels about "good classes" like the Draconics after spending hours setting up a campaign.

There are eight buttons on the bar with the option of putting your auras behind other skills. If they intended everyone to run easy builds, then we would only have three buttons.

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I don't quite see how we would go back to that ever, there will likely always be some builds capable of doing that.

I stated twice in the post you replied to. I do not want to gut the steamroller classes. They are necessary for starter builds, farmers, and new players to the genre. From a game design perspective only creating Draconic power classes is silly and shallow.

One of the biggest complaints is boring playstyle. People aren't that into one button builds. It also looks terrible on twitch just having people close their eyes and lazily complete the game.

I will say it a fifth time, I do not want to get rid of the steamroller classes, we just need to make other classes too.

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nooooodles wrote:

As for "good builds" ask any oldschool RPG player. The goal of the RPG isn't to always play OP builds. Ask any seasoned RPG player how they feel about like the Draconic races. Or better yet, ask the dungeon master how he feels about "good classes" like the Draconics after spending hours setting up a campaign.

This is just irrelevant to what I said.

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nooooodles wrote:

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I don't quite see how we would go back to that ever, there will likely always be some builds capable of doing that.

I stated twice in the post you replied to. I do not want to gut the steamroller classes. They are necessary for starter builds, farmers, and new players to the genre. From a game design perspective only creating Draconic power classes is silly and shallow.

One of the biggest complaints is boring playstyle. People aren't that into one button builds. It also looks terrible on twitch just having people close their eyes and lazily complete the game.

I will say it a fifth time, I do not want to get rid of the steamroller classes, we just need to make other classes too.

I think that you missed the point then :

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Fruz wrote:

Which means that you are proposing things that will by definition be inferior to the really 'good' builds, and asking for changes that are .... very unrealistic to be implemented by GGG imho.

PS : I would like the game to be slower and involve more actual interactions with monsters at high level, but I'm being pragmatic here.