Path of Exile, Gameplay Criticism
" Capacity (resource attrition) doesn't necessarily mean "slower", which is what a lot of folks are worried about. For example, League of Legends has a very good rate/capacity resource balance and the combat portion is still very fast paced. Health and Mana don't have to be completely meaningless for the game to be "fast". There must be more capacity emphasis in PoE, or it will continue to have the other two problems and feel more like an Idle clicker game than an ARPG. Let me put it this way: the quote "WTF was that?" and "LOL! Was that a boss?" should not so commonly be uttered. " Sure, but the consequences of favoring it persist regardless of what adjustments are made by the players. People often worry that if the current death penalty were changed "everybody would get to 100 easily". Well, that's interesting, because they're admitting that the game-play poses no legitimate challenge to them, and the death penalty is trying to compensate for it. But, no penalty can ever stand in for a challenge. This is why these problems have to be attacked together. |
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" Not really, as said times and times and times again, the lack of a significant penalty on death would mean that running glass cannons would be the absolute best way of building a character in softcore leagues, there would be no incentive to build defences ( as most 'hard' encounters are purely pattern based but the stupid last phase of the elder last phase and Aul pretty much ). SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading. Last edited by Fruz#6137 on Sep 16, 2019, 8:34:56 PM
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" Absolutely true. Since we got alternatives though which rely in hindering instead of punishing those could be taken. For instance reduction of exp-income by a massive amount until a specific threshold is reached. Imagine needing 10 or 20 times as long to get from 99 to 100, that should be more then long enough if someone keeps dying repeatedly. They won't be viable for any race or ladder-positioning and nonetheless it doesn't hinder people to attempt any especially hard content since this method would apply anytime, not only when you got 'deeper' into the level, so the disparity there would be removed. Details obviously are something to work out, but the base-concept exists and is viable. GGG balance is like getting a pizza which is burnt on the sides, raw in the middle and misses the most of the toppings.
Then upon sending it back you get a raw side, burnt middle and enough toppings to drench everything in grease. Everything fixed but still broken. |
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" I agree that there needs to be a significant penalty. The question is how to make the penalty significant without sustaining the other two problems discussed. We can probably agree that the current penalty is absolutely not consistent: 1. It can be avoided by ALT-F4 2. It can be avoided by zeroing out level exp 3. It doesn't exist before Kitava is killed the first time Forget anything else. Imagine how the rest of the game would need to change for the better if the penalty could not be avoided in these absurd ways. |
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" 1. the whole game has been balanced around spike damage because of the power creep and the crappy balance, therefore GGG is forced to allow instant logout so that the whole system does not fall appart. This one isn't about the xp penalty, it's about the whole system, and the whole system needs to be reworked to get rid of instant log-out properly. Arguably, it is also one thing that allows players with mediocre connection to still play and avoid potential connection-based-deaths. The instant log-out has pros too ( adrenalie spikes, if you play HC in PoE, you know what it is. If you play SC, you likely don't ) 2. I don't see how that's a problem, haven't "safe thresholds" isn't necessarily a bad thing, just saying "but you can do this" does not make it bad. Removing that would put the game to a different level in softcore and would just kill it for most casual players, and GGG certainly do not want to do that. 3. The progression is too fast before 80+ level, so I don't quite see how you can penalize players for dying ... even applying the 10% penalty there ( which they should, imho ) is pretty much meaningless. Although from a very new player, that might matter, I'm not super sure. SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
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" I think we agree on every important detail except for the feedback between the XP death penalty and the other problems discussed. Do you think the other things have zero connection to the death penalty? For example, the incentive to grind, the disincentive to try challenging content, one shots, creeping life and mana regeneration, steel cannons, etc? " In a previous post you mentioned the importance of consistency. The quote you are responding to was me basically agreeing with you. " Again; consistency. That was the point. |
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" No direct connection for sure. I'm sure that one could find literally everything there is in PoE connected to anything else in there somehow, but I don't think that it is helpful. Changing / removing the penalty on death will not improve/fix any of the other issues you mentioned imho, the xp penalty on death system isn't inherently bad either ( it being bad or not with the current system is already very arguable too ). Regarding consistency, I agree that 3. isn't great ( it does exist at 5% in act 5-10, but given the whole power creep, having it at 10% at all time would be much better imo), but I disagree regarding 2). The whole xp system ( apart from 3) ) is pretty consistent, and it is simple enough to be understood very quickly too. The "level xp threshold" system is something widely used in many games which makes it easy to understand and pretty much 'normal' for most I guess. ( It also makes sense to have it work that way to provide goals at higher level ). Now could there be a penalty that feels as harsh at the beginning at the level as the end ? There definitely could be, but would it be a good thing ? I'm honestly not sure about that. SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
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When opponents bring up counterarguments to any of the proposed solutions to the three issues discussed here, the reason for their objection is almost always one of the other three issues. This is, more or less, the entire purpose of the first video.
For example, if the response to "let's get rid of damage reflect" is "but then everybody would play glass cannon", it's an acknowledgement of the connection between the rate war and face-rolling. Similarly, if the response to "let's change the death penalty" is "but then everybody would play glass cannons", it's an acknowledgement of the connection between the death penalty and face-rolling. They must be solved together; they cannot be solved alone. The existence of the rate war and face-rolling problems is pretty noncontroversial at this point, but as long as we leave the death penalty off the table, we are being naive. Let's give it the good ol' 10,000 foot view: For something that is so important and so controversial, it's profoundly strange that the XP death penalty has not undergone even the slightest tweak in the many years since it was taken from Diablo 2, while everything else undergoes constant scrutiny and adjustment. It's reminiscent of religious dogma. |
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I was just about to post a rebuttal to the DP arguments. However, while listening to the video in the background, I alt-tabbed back because you were mentioning the death penalty alternatives. Wow, I actually changed my mind mid-post, you did it, that's a first for me in a loooong time.
Very good arguments (especially concerning the visual clutter..), I actually don't think I can refute any atm. I'll watch the follow up video later. "Path of Exile's engine is currently modern, lean and fast." - Chris Wilson, September 19th, 2019 "It looks like we broke something with 3.10.0. We don't know what it is yet." - Bex, March 16th, 2020 Last edited by girng#7675 on Sep 29, 2019, 12:43:17 AM
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" Would be nice if.. maybe the devs actually engaged in discussion in one of the most important sections of their forum. But instead, they like to waste time on YCombinator (cough, Jonathan, cough). Or, occasionally post on reddit if something is "upvoted enough!". What happened to developers engaging with their players? It disappeared Brevik engages more with D2 players on his drunken stream. Let that sink in. "Path of Exile's engine is currently modern, lean and fast." - Chris Wilson, September 19th, 2019 "It looks like we broke something with 3.10.0. We don't know what it is yet." - Bex, March 16th, 2020 Last edited by girng#7675 on Sep 29, 2019, 12:56:18 AM
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