for everyone who wants a challange

"

robmafia wrote:

"

ffogell wrote:

"

robmafia wrote:

...so logical fallacies are considered points now?

logic IS dead.

That is funny cause most of you against removing the death penalty come with speculative arguments on how people would behave in a future that have yet to happens ;)

...says it's funny. immediately makes a strawman fallacy and nails down the point he's trying to discredit.

*facepalm*

At least I,m trying to bring up some solutions ;)

We can speculate all we want about the positive and negative aspect of the change but in the end if we dont try we will never know ;)

"

ffogell wrote:

At least I,m trying to bring up some solutions ;)

We can speculate all we want about the positive and negative aspect of the change but in the end if we dont try we will never know ;)

Solutions are usually brought up to face problems.

I don't think there is a problem here, I think that there are players who refuse to think that there is a problem on their end and try to find a problem where there isn't one to begin with.

And you can't just justify everything by "if we never try, we will never know for sure !".
Some of the implications of removing the death penalty can be predicted to some extent.

And imho, proposing other solution that will fulfill the same purpose .... will be the same "problem" to most people complaining about it.

"

ffogell wrote:

At least I,m trying to bring up some solutions ;)

We can speculate all we want about the positive and negative aspect of the change but in the end if we dont try we will never know ;)

more fallacies.

i guess i need to try snorting a gram of fentanyl to see if it's fatal. if we don't try we will never know!

"

Fruz wrote:

"

ffogell wrote:

At least I,m trying to bring up some solutions ;)

We can speculate all we want about the positive and negative aspect of the change but in the end if we dont try we will never know ;)

Solutions are usually brought up to face problems.

I don't think there is a problem here, I think that there are players who refuse to think that there is a problem on their end and try to find a problem where there isn't one to begin with.

And you can't just justify everything by "if we never try, we will never know for sure !".
Some of the implications of removing the death penalty can be predicted to some extent.

And imho, proposing other solution that will fulfill the same purpose .... will be the same "problem" to most people complaining about it.

In the end I try to push the dicussion in a positive way that is why I'm advocating for trying stuff and experiment unlike you guys that just bring negativity about that potential changes and has no interest in trying anything aside from the status quo...

"

ffogell wrote:

In the end I try to push the dicussion in a positive way that is why I'm advocating for trying stuff and experiment unlike you guys that just bring negativity about that potential changes and has no interest in trying anything aside from the status quo...

Pretty much every time somebody explains the potential (and very likely for some) implications of a PoE without a penalty on death, what comes after is "No it would not !" or "No I really don"t think so" !

And that's pretty much it (and the other usual "you say this because you're a white knight !!!", etc ...).
Is being pragmatic necessarily being negative ? I do not think so.

You know what would be interesting ?
Having a short league without the death penalty, but with increase experience penalty to slow the grind instead. It would be interesting because the QQ would be massive and we would just go back to having the game as it is now, and we might have less thread like this one.
( But this would be a terrible idea overall of course ).

"

ffogell wrote:

In the end I try to push the dicussion in a positive way that is why I'm advocating for trying stuff and experiment unlike you guys that just bring negativity about that potential changes and has no interest in trying anything aside from the status quo...

...do you even read the posts you're responding to?

i just said: "personally, i think there should be MORE skill-related factors, not 0 - which is the amount we'd have if xp loss on death was removed."

more factors, you know... like the status quo. oh, wait. nope!

i'd prefer it if they doubled the xp loss AND added an entropy system or anything else to make skill more relevant to the equation.

but don't let the facts get in the way of your baseless accusations of straw.

"

robmafia wrote:

"

ffogell wrote:

In the end I try to push the dicussion in a positive way that is why I'm advocating for trying stuff and experiment unlike you guys that just bring negativity about that potential changes and has no interest in trying anything aside from the status quo...

...do you even read the posts you're responding to?

i just said: "personally, i think there should be MORE skill-related factors, not 0 - which is the amount we'd have if xp loss on death was removed."

more factors, you know... like the status quo. oh, wait. nope!

i'd prefer it if they doubled the xp loss AND added an entropy system or anything else to make skill more relevant to the equation.

but don't let the facts get in the way of your baseless accusations of straw.

Ah sorry I might have missed that part through all the post you did !

But well in the end we could all agree they could try various new thing in leagues and see the outcomes :)

GGG also could drop in his opinion on it, their last stance was back in 2012 when they nerfed the xp loss because they were losing people and from what I recall they were even saying in that post that they werent sure if that was the right solution in long term(xp penalty) but with all happened in all these years I'm sure it wasnt their priority either

OK, as the discussion really contains too many posts which just cherry-pick "bad" arguments from the other side I will try one more attempt at rebooting the discussion by summarizing what I understand to be the points from people who posted seriously up to now:

=== PRO: Arguments for the death penalty ===
P1. It forces people to build their characters not to die too easily.
P2. It prevents zerging bosses instead of beating them skillfully.
P3. It requires no dev effort to keep, so devs can spend more time on other issues.

=== CON: Arguments against the current dp ===
C1: At high levels, a single death can throw your character development back a lot. You can thus end up with a net loss in this gaming session, which is very frustrating.
C2: It prevents people from tackling hard content if they want to level their char.
C3: It can anyway be circumvented by waiting until you've dinged a level before doing dangerous content.
C4: Sometimes you die to genuine bugs or internet hiccups. Being punished for that really sucks.
C5: Losing a portal is already a penalty and other parts of the game (lab, delves) make you repeat everything upon death anyway.

I have summarized many nuanced posts under those few points, but hope to have captured the essence of them. Feel free to add more points, as long as they are not obviously just similes.

My opinion:
Although I find more arguments in CON, PRO1 is a huge one, as it implies major changes to the game's character if it is not addressed.
Explanations of this point can be found on page 7 by Th3c0r3ok or by me on page 16.

If the dp is to be replaced, we do need a different mechanic to ensure the game does not devolve into a "100% DPS, 0% defense, because why not?" shooter. It's already quite far in that direction, and there are certainly better shooters out there. I wonder if that different mechanic won't have equivalent problems to the dp.

============
Arguments I believe have been countered or are irrelevant to the game as a whole:
) "Death should mean something, else life is pointless".
Death would still mean something in HC. So there is a choice which can keep both sides of this particular argument happy.

) "Even spastics with no hand-eye coordination can reach lvl 100 if there is no dp. No to participation trophies!"
Who cares what other people achieve? Besides, copy a meta build and run easy maps for 8 zillion hours and you will also get to 100 without any skill right now. (Not saying that's how people with lvl100 do it, but it is possible this way.)

) It's GGG's religion, you will never change their mind.
Oh, give them more credit, they have previously changed their stance on other controversial topics.

) "Git gud"
Fuck off.

============
Suggestions made so far to change the dp (with no opinion as to their merit on my part):
1. Lower the penalty at higher levels so it does not increase the time cost as much as it does now.
2. Add a method to get some xp back somehow, like in D2.
3. Add a bonus which you lose when you die.
4. Apply a malus to the next gaming session so you do not lose past progress.
5. Give users a choice of penalties when they die.

An opinion after all:
I think suggestion 4 is no good at all, as no gaming company can be interested in actively telling players that continuing to play is less profitable than it was a short time ago. Any suggestion should ensure that whatever penalty is applied is purely retroactive. This sounds like it should also apply to suggestion 3, but somehow doesn't feel like it to me. I would compare suggestion 3 to the rampage bonus building up while suggestion 4 is like "the next x hours your game will be unrewarding".

Please refrain from personal attacks or jabs and let's try to make this a productive discussion. Thanks!