Auction House

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Phaeded wrote:

the H/O vendor/master/shop idea,

This is the answer. I would buy my vendor's license immediately.

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TheLockedGuy wrote:

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Phaeded wrote:

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TheLockedGuy wrote:

Looking at every anti AH poster's account. Yep they are all SSF elitist who don't trade anyways. Just a bunch of trolls trying to push there singular play-style.

I beg to differ. I'm against an AH or any centralized market and I'm not a "SSF elitist". I don't play SSF except for the flashback event last league. While I would like some tools to make trading better and I wouldn't oppose the H/O vendor/master/shop idea, I think any form of centralized market or AH would be terrible for the game. I'm not going to go into each reason because they've been rehashed so many times on these forums they're becoming memes. Just wanted to say, I'm not an elitist and I'm against AH. For the record. :)

Uhh WTF are you saying. AH is just an interface to trade without having to go through a player. Your not against an AH your against auctions it looks like. having a vendor/master/shop is a form of an AH.

POE.Trade and even POE's trade website is a form of a centralized market. Are they terrible for the game? Hell no. When POE.Trade went down. POE lost more than half the player-base. Until it came back up. After that GGG made there own trade website.

Just wanted to say. You don't seem to understand what an AH is. And you don't even seem to understand trade is already centralized. How is adding any form of in-game interface around it a terrible Idea?

I swear people like to make it hard for no reason. Their is no valid reason to make trading as hard as it is. Their shouldn't be a choice to play the game or trade. I actively ignore people who want items from me sometimes. Because I am to fucking busy playing the game. And so does everyone else. And that is why an AH, or in other-words an in-game interface is needed.

I fully understand what an AH is, but I don't think you do. Let's just leave it at that. You're too confrontational to have a rational debate with.

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Phaeded wrote:

I fully understand what an AH is, but I don't think you do. Let's just leave it at that. You're too confrontational to have a rational debate with.

LOL what. That's a comp out. Now I know nothing you say is worth listing too. I don't think you can even debate properly if you wanted too.

EDIT: FYI POE.Trade is an AH. Just not an in game one. You can even mark a price as negotiable. But no one ever does.

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robmafia wrote:

...an AH is "needed" because you ignored someone?

wow, what a stunning display of logic.

Uhh it is one of the many reasons. If you can't understand or at least empathize with this. As for why people need to ask for an item from more than one person. Well... There isn't much point in trying to explain any points to you. As it would seem logic escapes you. Trust me I'm not the only person ignore people who want to trade. It doesn't help to force someone to ask 50+ people for a single item.

And if everyone responded right away. There wouldn't even be a thread for an AH. I guess you can't even grasp the basic point of the whole argument.

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TheLockedGuy wrote:

EDIT: FYI POE.Trade is an AH. Just not an in game one. You can even mark a price as negotiable. But no one ever does.

no, it is absolutely not. it's an INDEXER. there is a world of difference between the 2. remember the yellow pages (phone books)? they're not malls.

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TheLockedGuy wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

...an AH is "needed" because you ignored someone?

wow, what a stunning display of logic.

Uhh it is one of the many reasons. If you can't understand or at least empathize with this. As for why people need to ask for an item from more than one person. Well... There isn't much point in trying to explain any points to you. As it would seem logic escapes you. Trust me I'm not the only person ignore people who want to trade. It doesn't help to force someone to ask 50+ people for a single item.

And if everyone responded right away. There wouldn't even be a thread for an AH. I guess you can't even grasp the basic point of the whole argument.

...you speak of logic, but you LITERALLY just claimed that an AH is "needed" because you ignored someone... then failed to ever explain HOW/WHY and merely accused me of being logically impervious.

you also just claimed that an indexer is an AH, so there are now a long list of keywords you seem to be misusing.

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TheLockedGuy wrote:

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Phaeded wrote:

I fully understand what an AH is, but I don't think you do. Let's just leave it at that. You're too confrontational to have a rational debate with.

LOL what. That's a comp out. Now I know nothing you say is worth listing too. I don't think you can even debate properly if you wanted too.

EDIT: FYI POE.Trade is an AH. Just not an in game one. You can even mark a price as negotiable. But no one ever does.

Thank you very much for proving my point.

BTW, you do realize that the "A" in "AH" stands for "auction", right? And you're claiming that poe.trade is an auction house. And you're further claiming that nothing I say is worth listening too. Lots of claims without much to back them up. But OK, you win.

Edit: Also, I just want to make it clear that I think you're being overly combative about this specific topic. For that reason I don't think it's worth the effort to try and discuss this with you. If you want to put away the ad hominems and other logical fallacies and really discuss it I'm game but you seem to be approaching this from a position of such hostility I don't think that is possible.

From my perspective, it's a matter of economy.

With PoE.trade,the process requires an actual human from start to finish aside from just grinding for gear. With that, the economy of the game is more stable because it is constantly correcting itself.

With an Auction House, trade becomes easy for everyone. Suddenly, it's a center for easy currency with little to no effort. Need a few Exalts? Find a couple of unique drops and cram them into the stash. Set it and forget it, as they say.

When that happens, the AH becomes the center of the economy which drags everything else down with it.

I understand why a person might not want to go through these steps, but the reason why this system works as well as it does is *because* of the effort put into it.

AHs become a cesspool and I'm willing to bet that the devs see that and think that the game well without it and I have to agree.

So, this is for you Guy.

Here is my take. First of all, I think suggesting or recommending anything that is against GGG's "religion" is counterproductive. It just results in endless debates on the forum and has no chance of actually impacting the game. GGG's religion is defined in the development manifestos and other position papers they have released over the years. In my opinion one of the GGG Ten Commandments is that "Thou shalt have no auction house". So, my conceptual ideas for improving trade start from the premise that regardless of their players' feelings they will NEVER implement an "Auction House", nor any form of centralized trading (e.g. a single "market" instance where mass transactions can be processed). If you want to understand why I believe this then just read the trade manifesto.

So, starting from that premise I immediately remove AH and any other such nomenclature or concept from my ideas about improving trade. I further see that GGG believes that "Trading shalt not occur without an associated PITA". That means nothing that will make botting for trades easier. Please note that I didn't say "will make botting POSSIBLE". We all already know this is happening so we just don't want it to get worse and GGG's bible concurs with this.

What does that leave? Well, if you're a smart cookie like me and keep your hopes and dreams as small as possible it means the best we can hope for is some sort of asynchronous trade mechanism. Now, I've played A LOT of games with trade and AH and other such markets. There are a lot of ways to handle async trading. But remember, if we're going to make a recommendation it can't be that all of a sudden you can marry your sister and steal from the vicar and fornicate with a pig. No, it must fit within the commandments. So, we know they want trading to be non-immediate. That eliminates trading via an automatic mail system or any type of system were you can sit in one place, find something to buy, and just buy it. So my statement about not supporting an "AH or any centralized market" is based on this GGG enforced reality.

We are left with something in h/o's that can be used to replace a few steps. To see why I say this, let's examine the typical trade process (I've posted this before but I want to help Guy understand where I'm coming from). By the way, I'm intentionally leaving out the frustration of having to contact multiple people or not finding the exact item you want because IMO those are irrelevant based on my premise. Besides, you can just assume a loop on step 2. So:

1. Search the trading site for the item.
2. PM the seller
3. Accept party invite from seller.
4. Visit seller's hideout
5. Initiate trade with seller.
6. Complete trade with seller.
7. For god's sake say thank you.

So, given the wall of text above and GGG's bible we have to consider a couple of things. First... where are the pain points in this process? Second, of those pain points, which can we alleviate without committing a sin?

It's quite clear that step 2 is the largest pain point. No response, amiright? It doesn't matter why there is no response (price fixing, in a map, in a delve, too cheap of an item to bother, etc.). There is just no response. I would argue that 90% of the bitching about trade could be eliminated if everyone responded the first try. Anyone actually disagree with that? I mean, maybe you can disagree with the 90% part but it's pretty high, yeah? So what is the solution to that? Well, asynchronous trading of course. I think we can all agree that asynchronous trading would eliminate the annoyance of not having someone respond.

I'm getting quite near the end of the analysis for you Guy and I hope you appreciate it.

So, how can we get async trading and eliminate a pain point without commiting a sin? Put something in the hideout to complete the trade on the behalf of the seller. That removes two inconsequential steps (the PM and the party invite), and makes those steps go from a potential loop to a single line of execution: visit seller's hideout.

All of this is the reason I support the hideout async mechanism option more than any other.

Now, GGG may still think that is a step too far but it's a damn sight more likely to happen than burning their bible and dancing naked in the town square while Chris runs around singing "Shout at the Devil".

I would like to point out that I've avoided all the tropes about "AH is bad because of D3" and "AH will kill game" and shit like that. I've just stated quite clearly why I've come to the conclusion that all this shit about AH is pointless. I would much rather have the community unite behind an acceptable improvement instead of having all these endless, inflammatory debates.

That isn't to say that I don't agree that an AH would kill the game. Because I totally do. But because almost all of those arguments are speculation on both sides, why debate them?

What I have presented here is reality in Wraeclast folks. Just sayin'.

Edit: After seeing your response to my previous post I've realized that it's quite likely I've completely wasted my time. But don't worry! I enjoyed writing it anyway. Peace out.

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Phaeded wrote:

Thank you very much for proving my point.

BTW, you do realize that the "A" in "AH" stands for "auction", right? And you're claiming that poe.trade is an auction house. And you're further claiming that nothing I say is worth listening too. Lots of claims without much to back them up. But OK, you win.

Edit: Also, I just want to make it clear that I think you're being overly combative about this specific topic. For that reason I don't think it's worth the effort to try and discuss this with you. If you want to put away the ad hominems and other logical fallacies and really discuss it I'm game but you seem to be approaching this from a position of such hostility I don't think that is possible.

Do you really take everything so literally?

The term Auction House. Doesn't actually translate directly to a video game. An auction house is a third party place that Auctions your stuff off for you. Not all Auctions houses actually have auctions on all items. Some only do auctions on rare occasions, and simply just sell stuff for you. Some do estate sells only. But they are all still classified as an AH.

Now lets translate that to video games. How does one sell crap? Well for the longest time we used a third party website to list crap for sell. That would classify this so called third party website as an auction house.

Asking for an in-game version of this. Doesn't mean it isn't one. Hell even having an vendor sell crap for you is still a form of an AH. And falls under the category of a third-party entity selling stuff for you.

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robmafia wrote:

no, it is absolutely not. it's an INDEXER. there is a world of difference between the 2. remember the yellow pages (phone books)? they're not malls.

POE.Trade isn't just a yellow page. It doesn't simply index stuff. It's not a static page that never changes tell you get a new book. It's not a list off places to actually go. It is specific to trade. It is a list of items for sell. And that's it. It isn't a yellow book for sure. It doesn't list each player, and the items they have for sell for one thing.

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robmafia wrote:

...you speak of logic, but you LITERALLY just claimed that an AH is "needed" because you ignored someone... then failed to ever explain HOW/WHY and merely accused me of being logically impervious.

you also just claimed that an indexer is an AH, so there are now a long list of keywords you seem to be misusing.

Your the one who used the word logic fist. And improperly so. You completely just ignore everything I say. And say shit like this. Your not arguing any points at all. Simply stating them as wrong. A list of items for sell isn't a yellow book or an indexer. It simply isn't. Being able to search on items by price defiantly isn't. You like Phaeded. Only look at the words and made up your own definition to what it is.

English is shit like that. People can use words to name anything. Even if they don't actually fit. Your whole argument and stance on the matter is shit. As you don't even fully understand the term your arguing against.

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TheUrsineGamer wrote:

From my perspective, it's a matter of economy.

With PoE.trade,the process requires an actual human from start to finish aside from just grinding for gear. With that, the economy of the game is more stable because it is constantly correcting itself.

With an Auction House, trade becomes easy for everyone. Suddenly, it's a center for easy currency with little to no effort. Need a few Exalts? Find a couple of unique drops and cram them into the stash. Set it and forget it, as they say.

When that happens, the AH becomes the center of the economy which drags everything else down with it.

This doesn't work like you think it does. Nobody trades in standard for example. And is one of the many reasons it's dead. Probable one of the biggest reasons.

Similarly; as the league goes on trade gets harder and harder. An AH might even revive standard in my opinion. I defenitaly don't see it dragging anything down. Allowing people to trade, and test new builds more easily. Would probable for-long things. Not make things worse.

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TheUrsineGamer wrote:

I understand why a person might not want to go through these steps, but the reason why this system works as well as it does is *because* of the effort put into it.

AHs become a cesspool and I'm willing to bet that the devs see that and think that the game well without it and I have to agree.

You are assuming to much. Once people make all they need trade goes away. I mean that is how the current system works. It simply isn't worth the effort after that. The current system doesn't work well at all. And if it wasn't for leagues it wouldn't work at all.

Fear of things that haven't been proven is what this logic is. My mom told me strangers are evil, and to not talk to them. If I would have listened to her I would have never of had any friends. While it is cool to be weary of things. Don't let fear of something evil control your actions. It will only make you think your safer than you really are.

Instead do things with caution. But if you never do it. Than you really don't know.