If you're bad at video games you shouldn't review games at all.

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grepman wrote:

learning by punishment is the best kind of learning. you learn much quicker to not stick your hand in the power outlet if you try and it zaps you.

A lot of your suggestions already there. A lot of league stuff isn't there in the beginning. A lot of mob mods are not there at the beginning.

And new league stuff has to be there front he beginning because it gives vets something cool from the get go. Otherwise it's a challengeless reroll until deep maps

This idea that a game has to be noon firnedly is ruining a lot of niche games. Niche games by definition aren't for everyone

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Belzak55 wrote:

This thread is the prime example why the PoE playerbase is so toxic.

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kaepae wrote:

It's much better to warn someone of the dangers of sticking their hand in the power outlet. If a young kid (inexperienced, not having a clue) aims to do so, a slap on the hand and a warning is usually proper. If they end up doing it anyway, the punishment is self earned.

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Instead, there is a lack of warning, and there's arrows pointing to it making it interesting.

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Path of Exile is promoted publicly

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and aims to gain a wide audience. I feel it is not more niche than any ARPG in its p

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Additionally, storymode is not the entire game, it is a small portion of it. I never said the whole game has to be noon firnedly (noob friendly?

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The start of it has to be.

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Belzak55 wrote:

This thread is the prime example why the PoE playerbase is so toxic.

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kaepae wrote:

Seems a pretty fair impression for someone who doesn't know PoE at all and is not too familiar with ARPGs.

I invited someone to play PoE who has played D3 quite a bit. It's ruthless in comparison. He followed a build guide even. "I saw this purple hand with some portal of sorts and I clicked on it", I responded "And you died?", he said "Yup". How does a fresh player prepare for a breach?

He had problems with incursions, just getting killed often (let alone the timer). I advised him to basically skip those until later. It reminded me of how much we actually skip running to maps. Nasty rare? Skip. Lab? Skip till later - but when? Breach - gear not ready: skip. In fact, skip most portions of the areas.

The way resistances work is kind of heavy on new players as well. Enter A6 with only decent fire res that got you through A5? Get burned really hard. Didn't prepare for this? Good luck getting gear on the spot unless you're familiar with trading, which can result in the "People don't respond...how does this work?" kind of experience. Followed by other resistances in the next areas. It's as if PoE design punishes you to teach you a lesson. Cap your resistances and somehow know about the 30 res drop + harder elemental damage forehand.

Then there's the 'wtf happened' random stuff. When you feel you're doing ok, something happens and you get obliterated. I feel this soaks up a lot of energy. When it's because of map mods (in the hands of the player), I'd say it's pretty fair. But for new players story mode is full of this. When a player feels good about their character, getting shredded suddenly without the game decently pointing out why is a moment of doubt whether to continue the game. Every such moment I got a whisper like "can't wait till D4 comes lol".

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The added tutorials were a good addition, but PoE is simply not friendly to new players.


There's no difference in the challenge for the new and the elite. The designers like MTG, to them I'd say think of a starter pack. An easier rulebook for beginners. Don't throw them in the tournament environment.

Starter pack:
* Some unique weapons as reward for the optional quests instead of random rolled rares
* A build template per starting location that can be followed (including gem choices)
* Add some quests that give some currency and require some crafting (perhaps with fixed useful outcomes to start with)

Easier rulebook:
* Prevent certain mods on rares, or fixate certain rares on spots with just that mod and extra life for some practice
* Leave nasty league stuff for later or tune them to the inexperienced (should be on par with the all over difficulty of the areas)
* Provide a more interactive ingame way to prepare players like an NPC tag-along that makes comments in the game itself

Storymode not a tournament:
* Dim out problem peaks (measure where/why players often die >2 times and change it)
* Allow more choice for players to opt for more difficult challenges with sufficient non-wiki grind preparation
* Tune new additions in storymode through testing by unexperienced players or people who have a better feel to what it is like for them.


Just some points I'm pretty sure a portion of elite players may disagree with. But the end game is for the elite, the start is for everyone, unless you provide various difficulty modes. Investing in experience for new players is really worth it in the long run. Don't overwhelm them, don't make them learn by punishment unless they refuse to follow good advice.


Cheers


PS seems a wall of text again, sorry for that. The soul of wit and all that...*cough*

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grepman wrote:

better in what way? We were talking about learning quicker. There is no quicker way to learn then by failures in trial and error. Being told that there's a danger is not learning. It's just told to you and you believe it and regurgitate. A lot of times not knowing why it doesn't work.

VS this approach:
https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DsBffNiUOeiA

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Sorry, but the idea of having warnings on anything that can hurt you in a video gsme is so absurd to me its hilarious.

It's some of dumbest shit I hear about gaming. It's people saying it'd be cool if player was warned about merveill cold attacks. No it wouldn't. The game would just tell you to do something and you'd do it and follow the example. It's dumb. You don't actually learn shit. You learn to follow what the game says. Vs you go in, try the fight, get wrecked, start thinking what skills she uses and how you can get stronger(hint you have resists and that skill skin looks like ice). By trial and error and dying you learn shit. You don't learn jack shit from warning aside from blind following

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Path of Exile is promoted publicly

As opposed to privately? Any niche game is promoted publicly too.

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and aims to gain a wide audience. I feel it is not more niche than any ARPG in its p

maybe now, but when I joined poe it was promoted as "the hardcore arpg you've been waiting for"

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The start of it has to be.

why does it have to be? This is said with such convincement, its absurd to me. Any game can be as non noob friendly as it desires,and I don't see why it has to do something. A game doesn't have to have a tutorial. A game can tell the player to learn how to swim by throwing him into the water. And it will be the quickest way, again, unless he panics and drowns. Since it's just a video game, a drowning person can be treared like Apollo creed. If he dies he dies.

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This universal standard that rose out of new generation gamers, encouraging of extreme handholding and coddling of new players, is why niche games are dying, again.

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Sprinklepacket wrote:

99% of games out there do this. Make the game easier and more streamlined for new players. Can we not have at least one game that doesnt do this? Learning from dying over and over again is fun for some people, can we please have at least one niche game made for these people? This was pretty much the entire intended design direction for the game that they said over and over from the start, that wraeclast isnt a forgiving place.

Its like taking one of those weird experimental movies and being like, hey can we streamline this and make it make more sense for mainstream appeal? Theres a million movies like that, let the people who like this one enjoy it in the niche style it is and stop trying to change it into something else. Plenty of other games/movies to enjoy. A game doesn't have to be for everyone and thats okay.