If you're bad at video games you shouldn't review games at all.

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kaepae wrote:

It has gotten a lot better and can improve in various ways still. I'm glad GGG took this direction. I'm also looking for arguments from people who are against this, even with the idea that there could be a mode that caters more to their desired challenge.

Again, I'm not asking for numbing down, I'm asking for more linear learning opportunities and an all over friendlier approach for the new while preserving the challenge for the experienced. Somehow this leads to a reminisce of what PoE used to be and how the entire game has turned mainstream by comparison (which it isn't).

Tracing what happened, in game build templates, smoother introductions to mods on rares, and so on. It's hard for experienced people to pinpoint how hard things are for new players. Design-wise, I favor the new at the start of the game. In the end game I favor the experienced. All over I prefer modes to cater to different levels of competence and to offer players choices.

The issue is that you get a lot of Dark Souls-esque players in this game, folk who believe that the brutal learning curve and the Facewall progression are an attraction, not a deterrent. Some players actively dislike being handheld through a game, even a new one they're trying to learn. They actively want the game to kick the shit out of them, brutalize and punish them until they learn, because to them that very act of learning - of getting better enough to not get their ghoulies caved in anymore - is the sweetest of wines.

An overwhelming majority of games these days try for the smooth, shallow-end approach to introducing new players, ensure that the game is easy and simple and doesn't punish or challenge a new player until they voluntarily decide to start playing the game properly. A lot of folks do not want that for Path of Exile, as the number of games out there which offer a steep, unforgiving experience front to back and which require players to earn their skill are in the deep minority.

Path of Exile was originally packaged as a game For The Hardcorez, By The Hardcorez. Allowing new players various modes and options and such to essentially avoid all challenge in PoE until they feel comfortable is against the spirit of the game, and frankly is sorta doing those players a disservice. A new player who's been coddled and handheld and allowed to play a version of PoE where Wraeclast is not, in fact, out to murder him as violently and abruptly as it can possibly manage is a player that is manifestly unprepared for the game to take the training wheels off and throw him to the sharks when, for example, he starts mapping.

That's not "a good NPE", that's a bait-and-switch. Bait-and-switch is an even better way to lose player retention than having an unforgiving NPE; at least the latter is honest, and people who're attracted to that sense of difficulty and hostile challenge will stick it through regardless. Better that than falsely trying to lure in people who don't really want to play PoE after all with a "Path of Exile: Girlfriend Mode" that doesn't truthfully represent what the game is, ne?

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Shagsbeard wrote:

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Rexeos wrote:

If they react to it adequately, PoE will be much better experience even for players, who are not arpg fans at all.

And we hope they never do. Many players like this "out dated" ARPG. There's nothing else like it out there.

Problem is - PoE is not an ARPG. Too many foreign elements made central, trade first of all.

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ChefoSLR wrote:

if it's someone's profession to review games, shouldn't they be GOOD at games?

Absolutely not. Good player is not representative of average player. If average player can't play the game right without reading a brick-thick guide book, the game is just awfully designed.

Also note: "Good at video games" doesn't necessarily mean "Good at PoE". Nor does "Good at PoE" automatically equate to "good at video games".

This particular game is, despite what the naysayers and forum flamer idiots say, a pretty niche product. it is a distinctly acquired taste, and a general population game reviewer shouldn't be expected to "get" Path of Exile right out the gates. The game is specifically designed to avoid that, ne?

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1453R wrote:

-- well written response --

I understand this point of view, thanks for your reply. Story mode must indeed prepare for maps. Some examples in storymode though, are harder than what is found in early maps. The cauldron and kitava fight come to mind. When I helped my new friend across A10, they did fine in maps thereafter. Just blue maps with some easy mods got them going and they got some resources. They saw the atlas and got a feeling of the endgame, which is what I wanted them to see.

Hence the streamlining argument. At the stage of mapping there is also more control for the player to tune the difficulty of the challenge, something story mode currently does not offer.

Perhaps this is what grepman meant with weeding out the players. I think it's a shame though, if storymode does that where they would otherwise be comfortable roaming across the atlas a bit. My friend had a fun run.

Anyway,

Cheers.

"

kaepae wrote:

I understand this point of view, thanks for your reply. Story mode must indeed prepare for maps. Some examples in storymode though, are harder than what is found in early maps. The cauldron and kitava fight come to mind. When I helped my new friend across A10, they did fine in maps thereafter. Just blue maps with some easy mods got them going and they got some resources. They saw the atlas and got a feeling of the endgame, which is what I wanted them to see.

Hence the streamlining argument. At the stage of mapping there is also more control for the player to tune the difficulty of the challenge, something story mode currently does not offer.

Perhaps this is what grepman meant with weeding out the players. I think it's a shame though, if storymode does that where they would otherwise be comfortable roaming across the atlas a bit. My friend had a fun run.

Anyway,

Cheers.

Heh. Counterpoint: why does the beginning of the endgame need to be more difficult that the conclusion of the story mode?

The A10 Kitava fight is the conclusion to six previous acts of story build-up - Acts 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 all center on either setting up the rematch with Kitava via beating your ass the first time or enabling the player to return and take the fight to Kitava again. It is the single biggest moment in the story campaign, it's supposed to be a deeply epic moment that requires everything you've learned, earned, and stolen so far. Having the very next thing you do be even more brutal kinda defeats the purpose of that epic moment.

The first stage of mapping is supposed to be exploratory, figuring out how this strange new system works and how these Limitless Alien Worlds you get access to function. Then you get hints of the Shaper's influence, and after you've encountered the Shaper enough times to start getting a feel for that you get hit with the Elder. It's another story escalation, a build-up towards the Final Boss(es) of the endgame map mode just like Acts 5.5-10 are all building towards the climactic A10 Kitava fight.

Mapping doesn't need to be immediately and instantly more punishing than the Kitava battle, and furthermore the Kitava battle does indeed have a plot-dictated need to be a powerful climactic moment. I would posit that the game is working perfectly fine as intended, even if a lot of folks aren't really familiar enough with how stories work to realize that not having a Big Bad Boss Battle at the end of six acts of build-up towards said battle would feel pretty shit.

Let Kitava be a jerk. That only means that players who can drop him really are READY to start mapping, rather than hitting an even steeper wall in the form of overly brutal initial map offerings.

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I_NO wrote:

I like how people are defending an incompetent IGN reviewer whos shit at ARPG'S

HAHAHAHHAHA

It's like OH YOU GUYS CAN RELATE TO HIM

75 hours shit dps sunder how's that possible HAHA

"PoE Community = so Toxic! We are so bad at this Game, we couldn't figure out how to play semi-competently until we rummaged through forums, looking for advice from people who figured out how to play. How do u get to maps without reading guide? lol elitist buffoons. U guys sux for elitist attitude. Toxics!"

god, you're an obnoxious person...

We...do all remember that one reveiwer's opinion of Path of Exile is not an objective statement of God-given truth, yes?

Yeebus. It's like none of y'all ever played Armored Core obsessively for years and learned to just roll your eyes and move along whenever the reviewers all came in and said "stay away from this game, it's a weird game for weird people and I don't like it." Shit, this guy was so much nicer to Path of Exile than the reviews folks ever were to Armored Core...

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1453R wrote:

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kaepae wrote:

I understand this point of view ~

Heh. Counterpoint: ~

If they drop Kitava A10 they've learned a lot more than story mode prepared them for. But sure, there's no need, just as there's no need to keep him this way. He can still be a badass at say 70% of his current HP and 80% of his strength. I'm not asking for a pushover. If your build drops him just like that, the build is on par for T8+ or something. T2 or T3 would do fine. Tuning is not making pushovers.

My proposed option was a side quest that may take a bit of time to diminish his power that newer players can follow. Or do the experienced really need to have newbs fail?

Edit: shortened the quote thing.

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Thieldan wrote:

Why don't you calm your tits for a second?