Energy shield is useless!

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

guardian is an issue, guardians are still insane. I agree with the thought train that es seems to now be balanced around ascendancy choices like that, I was expecting a guardian nerf, instead we got what seemed to me to be es totals nerfed to make guardian amazing but not stupidly op, and that left everything that wasnt a guardian in the shitter.

guardian aegis and guardian regen are still monsterous defense options, but rly I think they should nerf guardian and buff es so that guardian remains the same as it is now and everything else isnt quite so shit on.

The ring crafts should come back, and not cost exalts, they should be 8c the same as the amulet, and the nodes should go back behind ci. I dunno why they were removed it makes no sense tbh given the benefits of low life.

Yeah agreed with all of this (the ring craft removal/price increase was just adding insult to injury and utterly unnecessary).

Only Guardian and Occultist can pile on ES at the moment. For other classes it's tough to get more than 7-8k, and even then you're sacrificing other defenses. I recognize ES was OP af before the nerf, but as usual GGG just went too far with the numbers. There's a TON of middle ground between where it is now and where it was then, and accusing anyone who wants to change it of wanting to go back to the way it was is simply a disingenuous strawman argument (I could say the same regarding a lot of balance discussions).

Put some nodes behind CI again! They don't need to be crazy like before, just something better than 6% for characters who go that route - that way it's not just there for Occultists and non-LL Guardians.

"

sidtherat wrote:

so we should all pretend that ES cannot regen (not recharge!) and having double the pool doesnt make any difference?

so it was ok that people could get 10k ES with 4+ slots taken by no-ES uniques and barely any tree investment?

it wasnt. current ES situation is playable (no longer BEST doesnt mean it cannot be used) and has its places. these places are limited - true - but why shouldnt it be this way?

not to mention that 'pool' size is very binary in this game - you get 'enough for anything' or you do not. pre-nerf ES values allowed for stupid things like facetanking unfacetankable and pretending it is skill.

it is no longer 'auto-win' easy to gear, easy to play, no worries playstyle. and thats a good thing - if there is a choice that makes other choices redundant - why to have them in the first place?


there are far bigger issues with this game than 'someone lost their auto-win choice and is upset' - state of 2h playstyle (melee and casters), movement skills in general, fortify + said movement skills, idiotic stat sticks and fake-dual-wield in general, 'xp globe gameplay' and lots of tech issues like pathetic game performance compared to how it looks like. poe with current visuals should require a frame limiter NOT dynamic resolution.

then there are skills and turds (kinetic blast is an abomination that requires a serious and i mean serious nerf)

after you fix that - then ES might be discussed. because right now it works, works well, has its place and most complaints are on the line of 'i want my uber power back!'

Why i link anything if you dont watch it? The guy died instatnly with ~15k ES and GGG nerfed not only those builds which had more than 10k ES, but those too which not. An ignorable antiES/nerf fan dont try to explain for me what is the current problem. About 2 handers what you think how work CI builds now? Yeah with shields!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txOY-26NNTc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKPcPDATocM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoQtm4yl7EI

Not with staff not with dual wield. With SHIELD! And you speak from unbalance while you support it!? About 2 handers worked before the nerf with ES/CI builds. Before the nerf it was maybe problem for life builds but not for ES builds thats why i say the 10k+ ES nerf and not the below ones. The reason of not only ES above 10k is unacceptable because life builds basically have more armor and evasion. But guys we all know how much/which life builds have more than 10k+ life...khm +1000 life kaom khm...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gKCGDxfWjw

And i saw a video where he had 16k+ life.... OK. But we have to remember how much of the invesment to reach that much! And those who think ES is easy game easy life forgot that 25k+ ES is a build with 0 unique items full rare, shield+the shield node above witch and alot of ES nodes. I call these builds The Braindead Build. These builds is the definiton of boring game for me with 0 intresting unique or mechanic, but because of these braindead builds (according to their claims) GGG nerfed those too which tried out something intresting with lower ES... Not too much game give you the chance to change your skill mechanic with items/passives or any other way.

1 instersting build from the past:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqBNflR3KFU

Who care how much maximum ES/life you could get with rare items while the game offer intresting mechanincs like this?

If ES wouldnt be good enough i will build only on damage. Or something similar like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6t6_yrmzLA

I know similar builds were before 3.0 too but GGG leave no choices.

About balance. GGG made a lot of changes what built around ES until 3.0. New uniques/skills/ascendacies/ passive node changes/monsters/ bosses etc. Which they didnt turned back or compensate, and now a lot of them is unbalanced and the VP and ghost reaver change was the top of it. But GGG reached their goal the destroy of 90% of CI / shav builds / similar ones.

Build diversity isnt = forced to use something on an exact way. Like somebody mentiond the faster start energy shield recharge or play CI effectively with only occultist, guardian and trickster (with shield naturally)...

And what you guess why kinetic blast become bigger meta than before? Not enough ES, not enough leech/ regen to stay alive in close combat. So kill the enemy from safe distance but you wanna nerf it too... AGAIN. The solution of everything is the nerf. LOL. You never study!

"

sarannah101 wrote:

The only thing these ES nerfs accomplished is shift the meta to life while destroying most ES builds. This in my opinion has decreased the state of the game alot.

Simple true! I would like to stay bumped this topic maybe GGG dont wait 1-2+ years to make it back but sadly things went this way and to be honest i feel no hope they will make it back earlier than they planned what will be IMO 1-2+ years or around 5 leagues (count from 3.0). But they mentioned a bigger update what they wanna implement maybe in this year, so maybe there will be if not a rollback, but a little balance.

This thread sure is going a long while. I'd just like to reiterate that the very fact that Life and ES are comparable makes the system flawed. Even if both sides were somehow perfectly balanced, it would still have all the problems that everyone's complaining about. Quoting myself from earlier:

"

North2 wrote:

I meant it's mathematically comparable because it's still total health. Case in point, you literally just compared the two with only numbers.

Incomparables are when two things do something different enough so it's impossible to compare the two with only calculations.

Take Armor and Evasion, for example. Armor only works against physical damage, while evasion allows you to evade the entire attack. Some builds rely on taking a lot of punishment with high armor, while other builds rely on evasion simply to not take too many big hits in a row. These two are incomparables.

If you've ever made your own build instead of copy-pasting, you'll know that Armor/Evasion is in a good place. You don't make simple calculations to figure out which is better for your build, and instead ask yourself whether evading entire attacks or surviving lots of physical damage is more important to you. This is what good design with incomparable decisions do for build diversity.

Now let's take Energy Shield. Why is ES never compared between Armor and Evasion? Because ES does not have any functional value other than as alternative life. Recharge is supposed to be that other function, that incomparable thing that entices players to choose ES over Armor or Evasion. Unfortunately, 95% of ES builds never really cared much about that recharge factor at all for the past few seasons.

This is where ES fails in terms of game design. You weren't choosing ES over Life because its recharge mechanic fits your build better. You were choosing ES because either your build had no other choice, or it was just straight up better than Life. Now that ES got nerfed, all the builds that had no other choice is axed.

Energy shield needs to do something that makes you say, "Hey, this mechanic will fit my build better then Armor or Evasion", instead of making you say, "Hey, ES is better than life for my build".

there are few comments:

1) significant portion of the playerbase DID NOT experience things they 'have strong opinions on' - like ES, AR, EV etc. most of the opinions you can read on reddit and here are from people that have an opinion because they have read something and coupled that with their (basic) experience

so there is NO VALUE in popularity contests etc. some extremely popular are noob traps and some bonkers strong fly under the radar - it is all flock of sheep

2) content is binary - you can do it or you cannot. while it sounds simple and 'obvious' it has a very strong consequence. if some mechanics (like old ES) allow you to 'handle' the content with less investment than others - it is an auto pick. when 'strongest' content in the game (pre 3.0) requires 8k + instant leech or 10k + regen/leech - there is no point in getting more (ofc if one wants to do stupid things like tanking the untankable - so be it, but stupid is stupid, noone will balance around that).

old ES made it FAR easier to get to said thresholds than life. to be frank - it is still EASIER to get there with ES than with life, but at least - there are drawbacks that may fit or fit not to a particular playstyle. you know - choice

3) ES as a basic defence is just as good as AR and EV. it is different. it works vs every damage type BUT it has to be recharged/regened/leeched. despite what sheep tell you - you CAN make a viable life+ES character when said ES is used just like AR and EV - as a primary defensive mechanic

but sheep will tell you 'but it wont work because it wont work because it wont work because it wont work because someone who also couldnt make it work told me so'.

without really going out of my way i could make a trickster with ~4.5k life and 5k+ ES. you can make it work. ofc the armchair generals will chime in with 'but you cannot leech to both at the same time so it is THRASH!!!!!11111oneoneone'. armchair generals who copied all 2 builds they know and failed half of them..

4) ES for CI is life replacement. thats what CI does. it is by design. you then trade small perks of life for small drawbacks ES has and larger pool it can get. you CAN get EV or AR, esp with new shaper/elder items this combo is FAR stronger than ever (but sheep knows better ofc)

5) 'but ES works with 2 or 3 ascendancies' - design failure. well.. life is tough and i think it is time to accept some things. you wont see Witch with 8 endurance charges. so what?

6) ES/CI pre nerf was a braindead disaster. 3 or 4 pieces granted you enough survivability, tree required little travel and little nodes. all else went into damage. we had 'fun' builds that life builds never were able to match (guild 'donated' legacy gear crit attack life builds - please.. just no)


not to mention that 'ES is useless' is a whinge of epic proportion.

note: builds that require few gear pieces (chest, helmet, shield and maybe a crystal belt) and some tree investment AND are still able to spend 20 points for vaal pact AND get enough damage to murder everything - surely werent a problem

and Vaal Pact (while the most stupid concept in poe's history) was NOT the only problem. at certain numbers you no longer even need instant leech - and ES easily got players there. not to mention that the higher the pool, the better the %regen. couple 8% regen with 20% from leech and bits of ES on hit from Watcher's eye and that 8-9k+ ES character is not squishy at all. blind on hit == 50% evasion, basalt and end charges for phys protection and it is actually difficult to die (unless doing something stupid but who cares)

I can't really tell whether any of that was directed towards me or not, but here is one part that does directly argue against what I'm saying:

"

sidtherat wrote:

old ES made it FAR easier to get to said thresholds than life. to be frank - it is still EASIER to get there with ES than with life, but at least - there are drawbacks that may fit or fit not to a particular playstyle. you know - choice

I do not know of any good builds that chooses ES because it "fits their particular playstle" in ways that Armour and Evasion does. If there are sufficient variations of such builds, then ES is doing its job and it is just a matter of balance.

It doesn't matter if Life/ES builds are viable or not. Unless you choose Life/ES for its particular function, it's not chosen for the right reasons in terms of game design. An example of such choice is Low Life builds. In the particular case of LL builds, ES is doing its job as a choice made solely based on ES's function, since you really do need that extra energy shield to protect your 5 life. That is where my list ends. If you can share me more, than I'm all ears to hear it.

Edit: Perhaps it's better if I give an example. Let's say there was a keystone called Tactical Retreat that reads, "Every 5 seconds, using a movement skill immediately starts Energy Shield recharge".

Whether this keystone is too good or not good enough, it will certainly make you think about all the potentially cool builds that can come off of it. You add an incomparable function that is not offered by Armour or Evasion, since it will only serve a particular playstyle.

Builds you ask for are life/ES hybrids. You can make them and make them well. You build and gear for it. You have to avoid degens as they stop your ES recharge. But you have solid buffer and very interesting gearing.

ES as a primary (like AR and EV) works well and exactly as advertised. CI is in rough spot (it should get a node with alight bonus to make it a mathematicaly viable choice vs LL) but ES as a mechanic works and works well.

Problem is sheep perception of said ES - one dimensional and purely on 'best vs junk' scale with no place for variation and creative thinking.

Note: do not ask for 'good builds' because it closes the dicussion. Your good is different to mine so there is no point.

As a former ES+CI setup player i must say and i must remind everyone that current state is "fixed one" when it comes to ES. Off course "fixed" in meaning "so broken noone will use it, not on a "make a difference" scale".

"

sidtherat wrote:

Builds you ask for are life/ES hybrids. You can make them and make them well. You build and gear for it. You have to avoid degens as they stop your ES recharge. But you have solid buffer and very interesting gearing.

ES as a primary (like AR and EV) works well and exactly as advertised. CI is in rough spot (it should get a node with alight bonus to make it a mathematicaly viable choice vs LL) but ES as a mechanic works and works well.

Problem is sheep perception of said ES - one dimensional and purely on 'best vs junk' scale with no place for variation and creative thinking.

Note: do not ask for 'good builds' because it closes the dicussion. Your good is different to mine so there is no point.

When I said 'good build', I just meant a build that warrants choosing ES to fit a particular playstyle. That was a poor wording choice on my part. I have not made a single argument towards whether ES is in a good place balance-wise so far, and I'm not here to argue that.

I'd still like to be pointed towards a Life/ES hybrid build that is chosen for its functional difference when compared with a pure Life counterpart. I think this difference I'm looking for is where I'm just failing to explain my point adequately. For example, let's look at Righteous Fire Life/ES non-LL hybrid build that uses Geofry's Sanctuary and Shaper's Touch. Totally viable, interesting itemization, much cheaper, and possibly even stronger than pure life Righteous Fire. Everything you're talking about. This does NOT count towards what I'm looking for, because it is functionally the exact same thing as a pure Life Righteous Fire build. The only comparison you can make between the two is towards which is better or worse.

"

sidtherat wrote:

Problem is sheep perception of said ES -

The only sheep i see in this conversation is you really.
Alot of hearsay and conception, but your characters are not visible, so there is no proof that you have tried anything other then copy pasting life builds.

Just because something can be done does not mean it actually works.
Hybrid characters do not work well , for the simple fact that in a fight you will not have one after a hit. It would be comparable to molten shell without any investment to getting it back in a fight.

removing instant leech from es made it even to life and provided the choice of going for either, going beyond that just shifted it to life is better 99 times out of 100.
It is just cheaper and more reliable, and offers much better defenses.

Sidtherat: Since you've posted a few times I'm not going to quote it all, but it mostly seems like drivel to me. You talk about players being sheep, and reddit. I do not count reddit as players at all, since they could be any random joe just trolling the poe devs.
Now for the sheep part, you claim players posting ES is useless are saying this from hearsay. You have 0 challenges this league(bestiary), meaning you did not yourself experience the recent balance changes without legacy gear due to the balance changes only coming out with this league. As anything in standard and previous leagues is legacy. This makes your opinion hearsay.

I have actually made a life/eva, a CI and now working on a RF char this league.

You claim ES builds only have small downsides: I do not consider not having potions to instantly re-fill your ES a small downside! Or the fact that stun/freeze etc duration is based on life.

Yes there are a few ES builds still possible, that does not mean ES is in an ok place. So the OP calling ES useless is actually still the case for most builds.

What I also do not like is those ES builds being specifically tied to specific ascendancies to work. All classes should be able to build any build in my opinion, ascendancies should only complement those builds, NOT be the deciding factor to be able make them work. This hurts class diversity and build diversity alot as well, just like the ES nerfs.

You also seem to call ES just a different life... this is absolutely not true! ES works totally different and has some major drawbacks. ES should be alot higher than it's life counterpart, not only because of the drawbacks, but because it is an entirely different playstyle. Which is why I hope GGG undoes all the ES nerfs except for the leech part, and more specifically hope GGG do not tie ES builds to ascendancies to work.