Energy shield is useless!

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Scarletsword wrote:

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sarannah101 wrote:

PS: Checked out your build, it seems quite cool, but it does seem it takes alot of gear to make it work. Especially jewels.

Except when it doesn't take a lot of gear. There's a forum guide for the build and the creater has a video for a deathless Uber Elder without the jewels. Currently ES gear is ridiculously cheap and there are enough strong builds for it.

His PoB

https://pastebin.com/vRCrLYHd

Uber Elder video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9F3BK38z9o

As soon as people hear the word "nerf" even if it's barely a change of 1-2% something is considered completely dead.
Yes, the ES nerfs were strong but again ES is totally fine. It's just no longer used in every single build.

Some ES builds still being good and able to do endgame, does not warrant all the other ES builds nerfed into non-existance.

Change Chaos Innoculation into:

Maximum life becomes 1, Immune to Chaos Damage
Increases and Reductions to Life are transformed to apply to Energy Shield

"

sarannah101 wrote:

Yes, the ES nerfs were strong but again ES is totally fine. It's just no longer used in every single build.

Some ES builds still being good and able to do endgame, does not warrant all the other ES builds nerfed into non-existance.[/quote]

You are mistaking a people problem ("es nerfed? it dead!!!") with a technical problem here. ES builds are perfectly viable, and well represented in the top 15k players. If a specific build is no longer accessible to you, that sucks, sure, but it isn't proof that there is a global problem.

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sarannah101 wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

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PS: Checked out your build, it seems quite cool, but it does seem it takes alot of gear to make it work. Especially jewels.

duh.. isnt that the point?

all builds that 'can work on minimal investment' are what ruined POE's balance. it started when someone at GGG declared that they are 'fine' with flame totem being awesome with no investment into dps nodes. that was a MONUMENTAL fiasco that backfires up till today

endgame build requires endgame gear

it is pathetic from the gamedesign standpoint that it is so easy to trivialize 'hardest content ever' on a 5 link..

current CI builds and non-meta life builds have a proper scaling curve. crit whatever on the other hand requires 1/4 of the investment and simply cruises trough the game with barely anything..

In my opinion all builds should be able to run t8-t10 maps easily with good gear(not endgame/extreme gear). But I do agree with you that endgame should require endgame gear. The problem however with the ES nerfs were/are that they hit the low ES builds and non meta ES builds really hard as well. Not only those that had 20k+ ES. Not to mention those that cannot afford endgame gear, should still be able to map comfortably(t8-t10). Them being unable to do shaper/elder/guardians and such, that I agree with. As I see those as endgame requiring endgame builds.

There can however still be balance even if the lower end of good gear will be able to make builds and run maps. Flame totem is an extreme example, as you could as well run around naked with a build like that. My understanding of balance is every build with good gear being able to do t8-t10 maps comfortably.

Another problem that lies in what you are saying, and an issue that PoE is currently experiencing is one shot mechanics. You cannot balance endgame if you have mechanics that both one shot naked players as well as extremely overgeared top players. That means gearing is pointless, so why even have these ES nerfs in the first place? Right now this ES nerf(balance) is basically just a 'screw you' to those players with builds that are now unable to be build. I actually have builds I used to love, that I am now unable to make.

One more thing I feel strongly about: This is a game, not every build and player should require endgame gear just to be able to play a for-fun build(t8-t10 comfortably). The inability to do endgame(shaper/elder/guardians) with these builds, that I agree with you on. I'm in no way asking for the game to be easier, or nerfed in any way... just for the low end builds to be viable to exist.

but low end builds can do low end content. where is the problem about that?

making 'low investment' builds able to do yellow-maps-plus makes all high investment builds pointless - remember that this game has an economy (it doesnt matter if we like it or not, nor if we engage in it) - and if there there are two ways of making currency: one requiring tabula and lvl 19 spell gems and the other being melee RT requiring at least a very solid weapon - then noone will play the second build

thats the reason 'low investment' builds in fact DESTROY the build diversity - not improve it. thats the problem abyss jewels created (they made elemental flat ele builds like wanders able to clear good enough on literaly NO BUDGET whatsoever). look at all the MF rage. what you can see there? bows and wands! why? because a) windripper is stupid b) you get 20% damage per each abyss jewel you use. abyss jewels took already idiotic skill (kinetic blast) and turned it INSANELY IDIOTIC.

build that wastes 4+ slots on worthless otherwise MF pieces is both faster and deals more damage than most melee builds. AND has great MF. this is where 'low investment builds should be able to do all the content' ends

current wanders are STRONGER than Flame Totem ever was (relatively to current and past build strenghts)



most of the 'one shot' is in fact player error or 'string of unfortunate events coupled with human error'. hits like minotaur or hydra special moves, can be evaded (manualy), hits like shaper slam are to be avoided, same with pretty much everything (except lightning elder guardian that is some high level of design failure). stuff that you cannot reliably sidestep - cannot kill a seriously built character

if you have a mediocre character - do not run 4+ dmg mod red maps. ive been playing melee, sub 5k hp doing every red map with mods for ages. character is a pure glass and lightning elder guardian will f.. me over but mab bosses or beyond or whavever in red maps? no way.

armour, evasion - these actually work despite what clueless people like to babble

as for the CI - people that claim 'its sh..' most probably did not even try to build it and play it. you do not need extreme gear for 9k ES with CI. you can get reliable 7k with mediocre pieces. 8k with some investment and 9k requires pieces like these:




people complaining about CI should give it a try - plenty of streamers and players use CI with success. what changed is that ES is no longer 'auto win' choice that is literally BETTER than life in every f.. way

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SlippyCheeze wrote:

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sarannah101 wrote:

"

Yes, the ES nerfs were strong but again ES is totally fine. It's just no longer used in every single build.

Some ES builds still being good and able to do endgame, does not warrant all the other ES builds nerfed into non-existance.

You are mistaking a people problem ("es nerfed? it dead!!!") with a technical problem here. ES builds are perfectly viable, and well represented in the top 15k players. If a specific build is no longer accessible to you, that sucks, sure, but it isn't proof that there is a global problem.

You are seeing ALL ES builds as one whole. You cannot look at the low end ES the same as the top end meta ES builds. The way ES was nerfed, globally, also affected the low end. Making it a global nerf issue. You cannot say all ES builds are fine simply because some are still doing really well.

In response to Sidtherat: The second best gear will always hardly be worth anything, so the global ES nerf hitting low end ES builds as well does hardly impact the in-game economy. Even if it would, it would not matter, as it is a fluid everchanging economy. Even refreshed per league based on build viability. What did happen to the in-game economy after the ES nerfs is most ES gear becoming hardly worth anything, even the top end ES dropped in value. This is telling.

Me naming one-shots was meant as a measurement of why even nerf anything if in the end only the meta ES builds can even exist, due to low end ES builds not even being able to map normally. Ofcourse I realize these should be dodged manually.
I have actually made evasion(this league also armor) builds the last leagues since the ES nerfs, and it did really impact my enjoyment of the game. Where I used to play builds I liked(CI), I can now only pick meta builds which are endgame viable. As the ES builds I liked(tried it after the ES nerfs) can barely even map anymore, dying over and over isn't fun, especially when it's not in the player's hands.

So yes, I do see the ES nerfs as too harsh. The ES nerfs should only have impacted the extreme ES stacking builds with over 15k ES.

PS: Not every ES build uses a shield!
PSS: ES was never supposed to be better than life, just different.

but pre nerf ES was BETTER than life - simple as that. it was better in every f way (please, life flasks.. just no)

right now it is an option. strong for some builds, weak for some. and thats exactly how build diversity is achieved.

you can still get to very high (imo - TOO high) ES values with 'clever tricks' (yet another cancer that slowly siphons the life from POE) - like Guardians or convert-this-into-that-and-get-lots-of-ES stuff and 'normal' builds ES pool is still larger than life builds of similar investment

I usually don't support these "xxx sucks!" posts, but I feel that the ES nerf was the worst in the history of PoE. In my humble opinion. Poison/ignite changes don't even compare.

Whispering Ice was my fav build, and people say it is still viable, but I didn't like it after the change.

The ES nerf was the perfect case study for over-reaction based on the 1%. As soon as peak ES values were reached and builds were face-tanking end-game on you-tube it was doomed.

I liked ES because it was potentially attainable in reasonable amounts by the every-man, which is really why GGG nerfed it. I had a couple of high 500 chest items, but no 900's like the lucky few. So I could build a 10k+ ES character and have some decent end game advancement but because some schmuck traded until they could get all the best gear, and sat looking into Shaper's blasts with 35,000+ ES, the rest of us got to eat the nerfs.

Was it wrong that a more casual player could attain something with only rares? Evidently so within the bounds of PoE.

Anyway, rant off.

P.S. this was very much the same message as Sarranah a couple of posts up, just worded differently.

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SlippyCheeze wrote:

"

nadakuu wrote:

to reach above 8k as a non guardian requires heavy investment into gear , to the point that you have no other defenses.

How does it compare to reaching more than 8k life?

"

nadakuu wrote:

The nerf to ghost reaver should be removed , as vaal pact was changed and moved.

Lucky for you, they have been.

"

nadakuu wrote:

The guardian + es should have a cap to eliminate the 25k es builds that could occur , allowing more options for ppl to play es.

So ... you want ES to be much easier to reach high numbers, but a hard cap imposed, rather than just treating it like life?

Most my characters reach 7k+ life pretty easily with a decent rolled life armor - which again only requires one high mod roll not three like es.
The extra mod on every piece of gear is huge. The fact that i have other defenses besides a large EHP is also amazing.

Ghost reaver still has the 50% penalty to regen as far as i can tell. so i am not sure how i am lucky. I did agree that vp needed to be changed , and it was.

The number one cause of the high es values were due to the guardian not being capped for their bonus.
So ggg's response was to nerf every build instead of targeting the issue. This overall diminished build diversity while not addressing the issue.

You can't treat es like life, because es has several inherent problems you have to address.
1) you have little to no other defense
2) you have no access to healing potions.
3) you have to be mindful of stun immunity or use an item reducing overall es potential.
4) you have to stay to the upper half of the tree.

"

sidtherat wrote:

but pre nerf ES was BETTER than life - simple as that. it was better in every f way (please, life flasks.. just no)

And now ES is WORSE than life, "in every f way". Before, ES dominated everything, now life dominates everything (if we dont take mirror-tier ES gear into account). I find current situation amost just as bad, actually. Player has to invest much more into ES gear & build, and he doesnt get appropriate returns at all. Oh, and i dont even talk about builds, that use ES WITH life (something with Eldritch Battery or life+ES hybrid) - those are even more pathertic than pure ES.

thats just words. players are making CI build in league - various types of build. that alone means that CI is fine atm

it wont work for every build - but why should it? CI is just a keystone (lowlife should be a keystone too given how it is itemized). it fits build A B and C but sucks for D E and F. previously ES fit ALL builds

not to mention that due to (repeated) oversight idiotics like mana-ES are still alive and kicking making entire ES/life balance out of whack


hybrids.. you cannot make them work. do not project your failures on others please. you not being able to make something work is not a proof said thing is 'unviable' (unless your 'viability definition' says - "liked by me!"