Let's talk about endgame. GGG, this concerns you too.

I feel end game has got way harder and mobs do more damage since I played some months ago in the last league.

Played only one char in Abyss league, I got to lv 78. Died a bunch in white T1 Maps so decided to stop wasting my time and do something else.


I've said this before, the death penalty has no right being in softcore. If you want to be penalized for dying, go play hardcore.


I miss the days when monsters moved and attacked slow and players moved and attacked only slightly faster. I dont have the mechanical dexterity or reflexes to play what this game has become. Especially the boss fights. Previously the only way I could get through was with Golems killing while you were dead. Now that that no longer exists I have no incentive to play the game.

Yes I know no one cares, I'm just sharing my PoE end game experience.

I think there is some sort of dissonance here.

You either have to:

1. Agree that getting to level 100 is some sort of merit/challenge.
or
2. Agree that getting to level 100 is accessible to everyone with enough time and effort of not being a total scrub.

If you agree with 1 then why wouldn't a only portion of the player base that can either play optimally enough to hit level 100 (and not die)

If you then claim that it should be changed because the best way is to play "safe", the question is why isn't failing or playing well enough/optimized enough build to check you doing crazy stuff be allowed? Maybe don't do 8modded maps that are vaaled with beyond if you don't want to die.

If you claim then the best way "safe" makes it a matter of time, making the death penalty not reduce progress also equally makes it a matter of time. Just with more deaths while you smash yourself into content.

Also what is "Safe" exactly, the majority of players that aren't doing 10000x poorjoy rotas are running 8 sextant maps with beyond +8 modded vaal red maps to level 95+. Only thing harder then that would be running guardians for xp for some reason. Game inherently already rewards you with more money the harder the game is, it's "safe" to the player because they are strong enough to fight at the top 5% difficulty in the game and farm it.

IMO the biggest problem with having a marginal penalty is that it reduces the impact of your choices, nothing really matter because nothing is really on the line. Level 100 characters are really optimized for the teeth and piloted extremely well. If it was actually a matter of time, why don't we see badly made characters or bad players at level 100?

Choices matter of deciding to farm 10 more exalts to gain 500 more hp and the ability to be immune to stuns to be level 97 instead of 95, or gaining enough damage to pop abyss rares so they don't take the 2nd swing at you.

So the question is should levels (past 90) also show how well you optimized and piloted your character, or level (or 95) 100 is a function of effort and you have to dig deeper to see each character individually?

While the exp penalty has never really bothered, me i do agree that the way it alters your gameplay is not ideal.

When i start progressing into the 90's the state of my exp bar dictates my gameplay, if i have a decent chunk of my bar built up, i feel like i have to complete the level in safeish maps before i can go boss farming ect.

This is really a me problem over a design fault but it still dampens the fun either way.

Well, do take into account that reaching level 100 DOES TAKE TIME. It takes even a lot longer for those that "play it safe", especially as they don't "one shot" the entire screen at a time.

As I wanted to create a map pool, since the War for the Atlas new "current" maps introduction, I had to "enjoy" burning through those Atlas of World maps - without full sextant blocking as some were not the same on the current Atlas - and guess what, I'm at the last couple hundreds of T11-12 (200-250 more, my main is at 98 and 42% currently).

Sure, I could have joined various rotations if I targeted "efficiency", but I found that gaining 1% EXP for ~4-5 tier 12-14 maps moderately difficult was "moar" enticing than going full bonkers and risk >30-40 maps of > tier 14 at a time (especially as I prefer solo play).

Due to my build being a single target namelocking dual wielding RT Juggernaut, and me also being a compulsive n00b hoarder that ALWAYS FULLY CLEARS maps, I take around 8-10 min for a map. And I have fun while doing so, versus enemies that are NOTICEABLE, and you know, FIGHT BACK.

I could "burst" through the next ~500 maps, and the next ~1.3-1.5K maps IF I would feel like it, as I can freely respec not depending on the full passive reset, but why would I do so IF I WANT TO REACH 100 with MY OWN BUILD, IN MY "FUN" AND "INEFFICIENT" WAY?

The problem resides in the maps tier >14 not providing sufficient EXP opposed to those from tier 11-13. The danger ratio goes up EXPONENTIALLY when jumping from tier 15 upwards, meanwhile the EXP/untargeted loot rewards are ABYSMAL.

So I would enjoy a lot more an opportunity to reach Shaper, not be "left outside the damage wall" if I choose to RT and REAL DUAL WIELD, just "because" Crit is "moar" powerful.

And the more that I think about, the more that I would enjoy having the death EXP penalty set directly on the content run aka intrinsic to maps and their number of portals...

I would always prefer to forfeit a chunk of the map EXP and risk 0 progressing EXP wise (as loot is currently unaffected by death numbers, it could remain so with such a rework), and having that COST UPFRONT would make me want to push harder.

Just as much as "moar" tangible EXP from the difficult content would ENTICE me to run it as opposed as now - heck, increase the Shaper/Shaper + Elder, Uber Atziri difficulties, but make that EXP bar PROGRESS NOTICEABLY per succeeded fight at level 99, as you don't have any "moar" difficult options available.

PS: My build is "decent" from my own point of view, and "very bad" from an "opie-op speed meta" one. As I said, you need to consider that level 100 does take quite a lot of time, and most players prefer to not push the same character forward, so they prefer to level alts, also the league system doesn't encourage them to remain dedicated on Standard Softcore either...

Oh, unfortunately for me I do have subpar piloting skills at times, so that is why I died more times than I would feel normal, yet my favorite character still makes me want to play PoE and level 1% per day...

I am not lucky when it comes to drops and cannot spend on trading to get rich by fishing items for days...

so I am not a rich guy... and my items are mediocre and almost all my characters are stuck @ lowest 90ish levels...

now, I suggest:

1. when we play, we chose one of two mods:

A: %X XP, %Y Quantity, %Z Item rarity and no XP Penalty, where X,Y,Z < 1.00
B: current normal mode with XP penalty...

so, I sacrifice a lot to get XP and progress and get better and better until I reach Lvl 100 and switch to normal mode...

2. Identify All: if I have enough identity scrolls, it identifies all in char stash, starting from top left corner...

3. Change identity or portal scroll graphic or change color of one of them (on my screen they are almost identical)

4. In stash, Add Ctrl + Click on an item to destroy it instead of dragging and dropping to the ground... sometimes ground is full and we cannot drop (even worse, ground is full stash is full, and we hold an item LOL)

5. Add a global search for items (I have 50 tabs, and sometimes finding an item in tabs is really difficult, need to check all tabs)

6. Ability to see previous point assignment before a reset... when I login to my old chars, it shows no pints and I dont remember what I had assigned...

Lets address your next set of questions.

"

Which I guess leads into the next set of questions, this time concerning that moment of death and irrevocable loss of experience. When you die in softcore endgame and lose a chunk of experience, what do you do? Is your build the sort of meta beast that can reclaim it in no time? Do you just not die, because you're awesomesauce? Do you stop playing for the time being, or do you see it as a challenge and a lesson?

When you die in softcore endgame and lose a chunk of experience, what do you do?
I go back in and continue to finish the map as melee. If I was recording I go back and watch the recording to see where I died and what killed me. If I wasn't recording I switch to a ranged set up so i can be on easy mode and kill all enemies while completely ignoring their mechanics. After I finish the map I go play a different game.


Is your build the sort of meta beast that can reclaim it in no time?
No. I play melee. Also I have long since lost my damn mind. They can find me and I do not give a damn. I will keep playing melee until the damn eagles come. THE EAGLES!!!

SILLY BITCH...THE EAGLES ARE COMING!!!
THE EAGLES!!! (bleeds out from a wound to the gut because his armor and evasion both failed...again)
the eagles...are...coming...(coughs)...the eagles...


Do you just not die, because you're awesomesauce?
I play melee so at some point I am going to die just because i am playing melee. I had a projectile build but when I realized i was not interacting with anything but loot on the ground I gave it up and created a range set up for my melee build which i hate to use and hate that it is a must have almost.


Do you stop playing for the time being, or do you see it as a challenge and a lesson?
Back when V. Blood was in the game and GGG was openly treating melee like some sort of meme I would just say "fuck it" and go play Grim Dawn or Torchlight. without even completing the map i was on. Seeing as there is not much difference between then and now currently I will the complete the map I was on and then go play something else. I don't see my deaths in the endgame or even in the game itself a lesson or a challenge when I can do one or more of the following to prevent them:

1. Play projectile or totems to ignore all enemy mechanics (except proximity shield but really that is like half a mechanic)

2. Skip boss fights unless i need to kill that boss (even then just apply 1 to prevent death)

3. play with no mods or less mods on maps

4. use logout macro (the main reason I stopped playing hardcore and refuse to go back after i found out GGG was ok with this)

5. play on yellow maps only

6. play only the same 2 or 3 maps over and over again

7. use rubber chicken build (did not see that coming)

8. Don't use Zana mods

9. Ignore random events in the maps themselves (ex: random breaches, essence mobs, strongboxes, etc.)

10. Play meta build

It all comes back to the same thing. "If you don't want to die play it safe. If you don't want to die you need to play the game the way we tell you not how you want."



Now here is the deal i do not want the game tuned for me. I want to see the game carry the same danger regardless of what i do. Then the death penalty has merit.



When I play Grim Dawn I get the "skills pay the bills" experience. Monsters fight back, monster defend themselves, monsters position themselves, monsters debuff players, monster tank for other monsters. It becomes a freak show. My characters in Grim Dawn rely on tactics to win engagements. There isn't a safe way to deal with monsters, bosses, or areas. They got shit for everybody. Everybody will catch hands or something from bosses and mobs. Even if I play it safe and stay out of harder areas the faction system guarantees stronger monsters/mobs will show up in low level areas. When I die in that game and lose EXP i have a shot to get some of it back (depending on where I died some areas do not allow this). However I still have to battle my way to the grave maker as some of the monsters that i have killed along the way have respawned. The lesson i gain there is: Get better at your chosen craft or die screaming.


Maybe I should just take some of my own advice from the past and just:



Might as well I already have begun to practice with rags.

Personally I think it's punishment enough to lose one of your six portals mapping if you die. The XP penalty has always left me trying to play it safe to get ahead. I'm a dirty little casual and don't have heaps of time to invest, so when I die, it sometimes takes me days to get back to where I was and that is extremely discouraging. I'll either stop playing for a couple of days/weeks and in some rare cases, I stopped for months because I was tired of the XP penalty. I'll play white maps totally unmodded by anything, skip bosses if I have to and flat out bail if it gets bad enough.

Go ahead and tell me to git gud, I don't really care. I'm not a bad player by any means, but this game is sorely punishing to those who don't always have a lot of time to invest in it. You could tell me to find another game and that's all fine and good, but it shouldn't have to come to that, should it? So I often play a character and get to maps (or don't) and rinse repeat with a new toon and new build. If the build doesn't work out for me, then I'll call it off sooner.

That said, I'll answer these questions:

When you die in softcore endgame and lose a chunk of experience, what do you do?
Get frustrated to be honest. Sometimes it's very out of the blue and hard to tell what exactly killed me. I've run into major lag spikes where the game will stall for a moment and when everything starts rolling again, the character is literally already dead and has been since sometime during the freeze. My main character is level 91 melee build and I actually just died today to a Promenade map unmodded (actually picked it up on accident thinking I'd grabbed an unID version) at 14% XP totally out of my control. Of course I'm at zero again. I died a few days ago taking a risk on a Tier XIII corrupted map and spent the last couple days trying to reclaim that XP. Got lucky and my Zana daily was an Untainted Paradise which only gave me 5% but I was 5% closer back to where I was. Now thanks to that Promenade doozy, I'm at 0% again and uninterested in moving forward for the time being.

So I'll take a break and play another character, or another game entirely. If the rewards were better, even, I'd take that but I feel like I'm grinding for nothing but bragging rights sometimes. Once in a while I get a nice drop that makes me insanely happy for a little bit.

I'll answer the rest shorter below even though I kind of answered it in one big chunk...

Is your build the sort of meta beast that can reclaim it in no time?
Nope.

Do you just not die, because you're awesomesauce?
I don't if I play it safe. Even if I don't, I don't die as easily as I once did since the last reroll and I got a better belt for my main.

Do you stop playing for the time being, or do you see it as a challenge and a lesson?
I'm more likely to stop or switch characters.

Challenge and lesson? No. Not if it keeps happening due to reasons out of my control. Now if I foolishly approach a boss and get my arse handed to me, I understand that and try to pinpoint what went wrong or make improvements to my build.

Bottom line: I hate the XP penalty. The whole point of wusscore at least by opting to not play hardcore in my mind, is to not have a penalty for losing like other games "easy" modes and what have you.

I want to extend my suggestion above...

I suggested 2 mods

A: lowered XP, loot, rarity but 0% XP loss...
B: current mode

now I thought we can extend this a bit...

think of scale that we can adjust from 0 to 100

0: no XP loss on death, no loot at all (or it can start at X% loot at 0 where X is like %25)...
25: 1/4 loot (or base + 0.25 x (full-base) loot in case if a base) and %2.5 penalty
50: half loot (or base + 0.50 x (full-base) loot in case if a base) and %5.0 penalty
75: 3/4 loot (or base + 0.75 x (full-base) loot in case if a base) and %7.5 penalty
100: current mode, 10% XP loss, full loot

or we can pay some currency to play in above mode (it may be fixed for all maps, or price may change as map level gets bigger), like:

0 - 5c: no XP loss on death, no loot at all (or it can start at X% loot at 0 where X is like %25)...
25 - 4c: 1/4 loot (or base + 0.25 x (full-base) loot in case if a base) and %2.5 penalty
50 - 2c: half loot (or base + 0.50 x (full-base) loot in case if a base) and %5.0 penalty
75 - 1c: 3/4 loot (or base + 0.75 x (full-base) loot in case if a base) and %7.5 penalty
100 - free: current mode, 10% XP loss, full loot

current state: I stuck @ 90-92 in all my characters and I am not rich/lucky enough to get better gear and improve my chars... so I keep dying and it gets boring as hell... and when I die, I press Alt-F4 and play something else most of the time...

Firstly, thank you to the OP for all the extremely well articulated posts. It's obvious you care deeply about the game and have the writing skills to respectfully express your concerns.

My opinion is that the death penalty is, unfortunately, a necessary evil used to give survivability (defensive) mechanics real value; thus, increasing build diversity/reducing glass cannon meta. Also, dying basically makes you feel stupid... which is a good thing later on when you thwart another stupid RIP with knowledge extracted from the previous death (Lag and DC deaths excluded).

I do, however, feel the penalty is too harsh and heavily discourages players from running unfamiliar/dangerous maps.

My idea for death penalty is as follows:

The player never loses base XP (base = XP amount before map is entered).

Instead, experience lost on death is only the amount that was earned in that map/zone, up to a maximum of 10%.

Re-entry of that zone incurs a 50% XP reduction gained on kills increasing by 10% (60%, 70%, 80% etc) for each subsequent death registered in that zone.

EG. A level 90 enters a map with 25% XP and increases his XP to 28% (3% increase). He then dies but only loses the 3% gained in that map; reverting to 25%. However, the XP gained from monsters remaining in that map is reduced by 50%. He then dies instantly again but loses no XP, staying at 25% but the 2nd death triggers a reduction of 60% XP now gained from monsters.

I feel this system provides ample incentive to avoid careless glass cannon gameplay becoming the standard while also encouraging players to run any map they feel like.

I feel it also scales well with the leveling process and could be implemented into the storyline acts when the penalties start to kick in.

My only concern is that this system will be very lenient on those at very high levels. I'm ok with this as I know the patience required to reach level 100 is inhuman (I've done it -.- ), even if your build and map choices (case in point) negates any chance of death occurring.

Food for thought. Keep up the good work Scourge!

Waaaayyyyy too long post about the same "issue". Still pretty well written. Did not hurt my eyes like most long posts.
Anyway i just have to say again that this is only problem to those who are obsessed to reach 95+. Most builds work at lvl95 perfectly so there is really no need to reach lvl 100 unless you want the bragging rights or you are racing. Those few points should be really hard to get. (I actually think that ascendancy points are too easy to get)
I understand that its frustrating to die on a lag spike and lose hours of grinding.
But if they remove the death penalty its pretty much free ride to anyone with time. No skill or making your build work. Just grind with your shitty char that cant stay alive in t13 maps. No neeed to spend time grinding and getting gear to survive. Just run your glasscannon untill you hit a level.

I did not read any great options to death penalty. Only some "make end game harder" stuff that really does not sound like a solid solution to me.

Pretty sure that the penalty will stay. But if someone has actually a good alternative then i might be persuated to promote the change.