Feedback and Suggestions (Path of Exile 1) - Let's talk about endgame. GGG, this concerns you too. - Forum

Now after some time to think about and a night between, I second your suggestion to remove the death penalty. Reason is the more and more cropped xp penalty calculation while (slowly) progressing through maps. invited by timer @ 10.12.2011 -- deutsche Community: www.exiled.eu & ts.exiled.eu	Posted by Mr_Cee#0334 on Mar 2, 2018, 2:40:43 AM Quote this Post
Most people would just trash the map after 1 or 2 deaths and start a new with 100% exp gain. so this really does not punish at all and there fore does not work at all. What is the punishment? To lose the map? Dont really give a shit unless its expensive unique map.[/quote] You're right, it will only punish those high enough in level to require expensive high-level maps. Wait, wasn't that the point? " Laskinaama wrote: And because if i want to try something insane i try it when i have under 10% exp like any rationally thinking poe player would. Did you notice all the posters in this thread saying that this is the exact behavior that they don't like to feel compelled into?[/quote] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dont know about others but losing few T14 maps cos i ripped and trashed em wont make a dent in my map pool and i bet same goes for most 94+ characters so imo it does not punish anyone but the most poor and casual player. It sure wont punish those who run meta speed builds in T10-13 maps. So again. It does not punish shit so its just a bad design. ALSO i could just run that map fast for map drops since i have no fear of death since i have no fear of losing anything. I sure wouldnt care if i lost the exp i earned with -50% multiplier. I did not read every post in this thread but i know i like it the way it is. I like to have to make the desicion if i want to challenge this uber beast i encountered and risk losing exp for the possible reward. With this system you guys are suggesting there is no desicion. Just jump in and dont really care if i die. ps. damn i hate trying to make posts with quotes on phone. Frustrating.... Last edited by Laskinaama#6126 on Mar 2, 2018, 10:34:43 AM	Posted by Laskinaama#6126 on Mar 2, 2018, 2:56:45 AM Quote this Post
" Damoochie wrote: Re-entry of that zone incurs a 50% XP reduction gained on kills So if its not really a very valuable/expensive map (or one of your last) just skip the remaining part completely and proceed to the next one? Doesnt sound very balanced if taking the 'risk' of dying again increases the penalty, while skipping it completely avoids it. (and the less valuable the 'remaining' part of the map is, the 'better' to skip). But the main idea is a really good suggestion! invited by timer @ 10.12.2011 -- deutsche Community: www.exiled.eu & ts.exiled.eu	Posted by Mr_Cee#0334 on Mar 2, 2018, 3:58:43 AM Quote this Post
" Damoochie wrote: ... My opinion is that the death penalty is, unfortunately, a necessary evil used to give survivability (defensive) mechanics real value; thus, increasing build diversity/reducing glass cannon meta. Also, dying basically makes you feel stupid... which is a good thing later on when you thwart another stupid RIP with knowledge extracted from the previous death (Lag and DC deaths excluded). I do, however, feel the penalty is too harsh and heavily discourages players from running unfamiliar/dangerous maps. My idea for death penalty is as follows: The player never loses base XP (base = XP amount before map is entered). Instead, experience lost on death is only the amount that was earned in that map/zone, up to a maximum of 10%. Re-entry of that zone incurs a 50% XP reduction gained on kills increasing by 10% (60%, 70%, 80% etc) for each subsequent death registered in that zone. ... I could so go for something along these lines - it's a nicely thought out proposal that happens to agree with most of my preferences. I would consider modifying the penalty to a multiple of the experience earned in the instance if necessary to provide more zing. The salient point is that this is a Death Penalty (risk) that scales more closely with reward - the better way to go. Nicely done. I now comment in Forums with my Xbox account: https://www.pathofexile.com/account/xbox/view-profile/walkjohn55 Last edited by AnExile_onthePath#1185 on Mar 2, 2018, 4:44:19 AM	Posted by AnExile_onthePath#1185 on Mar 2, 2018, 4:43:53 AM Quote this Post
" Snorkle_uk wrote: ... " AnExile_onthePath wrote: OK, I'll feign confusion. How does the fact that accomplished players geared to or near the max can safely farm difficult content translate to that I should be able to try out something new (and difficult) with no fear of dying? if you didnt fear death then theres no point in playing surely? You want to play a game you cant lose in? Is that even a game? Of course you are correct, a fear of death certainly does add some zest to playing the game. But the level of that fear usually affects play - too little and it's glass cannons everywhere - too much and the damper may become demotivating (it is soft core after all - the players needing/enjoying the ultimate risk have Hard Core). So I should have said something to the effect of "why should I have little expectation of death because other accomplished and well equipped players have little expectation of death" - which may or may not mean something. That being said, I had to go back a note or two to figure things out and I expect that this discussion is sort of getting lost in the larger discussion. And I've found a new "horse" to back (broadly speaking, more closely matching risk and reward) " Damoochie wrote: ... My opinion is that the death penalty is, unfortunately, a necessary evil used to give survivability (defensive) mechanics real value; thus, increasing build diversity/reducing glass cannon meta. Also, dying basically makes you feel stupid... which is a good thing later on when you thwart another stupid RIP with knowledge extracted from the previous death (Lag and DC deaths excluded). I do, however, feel the penalty is too harsh and heavily discourages players from running unfamiliar/dangerous maps. My idea for death penalty is as follows: The player never loses base XP (base = XP amount before map is entered). Instead, experience lost on death is only the amount that was earned in that map/zone, up to a maximum of 10%. Re-entry of that zone incurs a 50% XP reduction gained on kills increasing by 10% (60%, 70%, 80% etc) for each subsequent death registered in that zone. ... I now comment in Forums with my Xbox account: https://www.pathofexile.com/account/xbox/view-profile/walkjohn55	Posted by AnExile_onthePath#1185 on Mar 2, 2018, 5:09:04 AM Quote this Post
" Snorkle_uk wrote: " gibbousmoon wrote: " Laskinaama wrote: And because if i want to try something insane i try it when i have under 10% exp like any rationally thinking poe player would. Did you notice all the posters in this thread saying that this is the exact behavior that they don't like to feel compelled into? Imo that period where you can die and not care is a kindness afforded by the system, I dont even think its entirely intended, rather its just a loophole because of how messy and harsh it would be taking away passives and its ok to let people get away with it. If it was to be changed I feel like the change would be that their deaths are made to matter when they have 0 xp too, not remove their deaths mattering when they have xp to lose. And yet it remains an affordance incentivizing non-risky play (i.e., rewarding "unfun behaviors," a design flaw I lambasted in my earlier long post in this thread). That said, I've become more convinced by some of you guys saying a map-specific penalty is not harsh enough. I wonder if the idea can be refined, though. Another idea (shooting from the hip here) would be a portal penalty. An additional portal dies if you die (as opposed to just using it). The problem with this idea is the crummy itemization of rares which disincentivizes picking stuff up (and that's an equally huge problem, imo), which in turn devalues all portals. So, ok. Scrap that idea. How about a time-based penalty? And here I don't mean real-time, I mean game time, so you are actually forced to endure it. And the in-game timer would have to stop if you haven't killed any monsters in the past, oh, 2 minutes? So players don't simply idle a character and play another on a different computer. That way a death does indeed interfere with your experience growth, without taking any away from you. Balanced correctly, such a penalty could even be harsher than the current system. Might be tricky to code, though. Wash your hands, Exile!	Posted by gibbousmoon#4656 on Mar 2, 2018, 11:05:20 AM Quote this Post
" gibbousmoon wrote: " Damoochie wrote: Spoiler Firstly, thank you to the OP for all the extremely well articulated posts. It's obvious you care deeply about the game and have the writing skills to respectfully express your concerns. My opinion is that the death penalty is, unfortunately, a necessary evil used to give survivability (defensive) mechanics real value; thus, increasing build diversity/reducing glass cannon meta. Also, dying basically makes you feel stupid... which is a good thing later on when you thwart another stupid RIP with knowledge extracted from the previous death (Lag and DC deaths excluded). I do, however, feel the penalty is too harsh and heavily discourages players from running unfamiliar/dangerous maps. My idea for death penalty is as follows: The player never loses base XP (base = XP amount before map is entered). Instead, experience lost on death is only the amount that was earned in that map/zone, up to a maximum of 10%. Re-entry of that zone incurs a 50% XP reduction gained on kills increasing by 10% (60%, 70%, 80% etc) for each subsequent death registered in that zone. EG. A level 90 enters a map with 25% XP and increases his XP to 28% (3% increase). He then dies but only loses the 3% gained in that map; reverting to 25%. However, the XP gained from monsters remaining in that map is reduced by 50%. He then dies instantly again but loses no XP, staying at 25% but the 2nd death triggers a reduction of 60% XP now gained from monsters. I feel this system provides ample incentive to avoid careless glass cannon gameplay becoming the standard while also encouraging players to run any map they feel like. I feel it also scales well with the leveling process and could be implemented into the storyline acts when the penalties start to kick in. My only concern is that this system will be very lenient on those at very high levels. I'm ok with this as I know the patience required to reach level 100 is inhuman (I've done it -.- ), even if your build and map choices (case in point) negates any chance of death occurring. Food for thought. Keep up the good work Scourge! This is, without question, the best idea I have ever read for making defensive mechanics meaningful without disincentivizing engagement with more challenging content (as the current death penalty demonstrably does). Way to go! I really hope GGG notices this idea and runs with it. Thanks Gibbous! Does GGG even read these damn things? xD " Laskinaama wrote: Most people would just trash the map after 1 or 2 deaths and start a new with 100% exp gain. so this really does not punish at all and there fore does not work at all. What is the punishment? To lose the map? Dont really give a shit unless its expensive unique map. This behaviour is expected. And it does punish the player with wasted time along with map loss if the rip occurs after killing most of the mobs. Admittedly, it's a lot less of a punishment than what a 10% loss is worth, but that's the point. Dig this logic if you will - If I die on a map it generally means the mods are difficult. And why am I doing that map? For the high IIQ/IIR values. I would only have done this map if I was in that small window of fun time that occurs directly after leveling (I can testify to using the strategy many people have mentioned which is to play safe maps if you have decent XP under your belt, and it's not fun). I personally play Softcore to develop builds to their logical conclusion while trying to have fun as well with hunting big loot. The current system does not afford me the freedom to choose when I want to have my relaxed fun (when I'm not wanting to lose XP) which is a feeling I suspect is more suited to Hardcore mode. I'm also aware my proposed system makes boss fights even less desirable given the potential complete loss of the map XP earned, but I've already suggested that players need more incentive to kill bosses (and a way to do it) but it hasn't changed and is still a relatively pointless and hazardous exercise. Another idea is to create an item that can be consumed in the map device, along with a map, that disables XP gained or lost on that map (or just a selectable option on the map device so we don't add more stash clutter). This puts the responsibility on the player which is what we want at the end of the day. --------------- THE MOOCH --------------	Posted by Damoochie#1947 on Mar 2, 2018, 12:54:38 PM Quote this Post
Well having a map based XP penalty would be a good idea, except for maybe some specific areas. Because for boss only areas like certain maps or things like the Council you would still need the old penalty to even have some punishment for dying. Also I dont think reducing the XP you gain is a good idea, because this affects single players much more than groups. If you are 6 people you can't reenter a map anyway, so you basically only gain from this change. And maps are easier with 6 people anyway, since mobs have less HP per player. Only getting 50% XP per map would basically mean you drop the map after dying once, because it is a waste of time.	Posted by Emphasy#0545 on Mar 2, 2018, 1:29:28 PM Quote this Post
" Emphasy wrote: Well having a map based XP penalty would be a good idea, except for maybe some specific areas. Because for boss only areas like certain maps or things like the Council you would still need the old penalty to even have some punishment for dying. Also I dont think reducing the XP you gain is a good idea, because this affects single players much more than groups. If you are 6 people you can't reenter a map anyway, so you basically only gain from this change. And maps are easier with 6 people anyway, since mobs have less HP per player. Only getting 50% XP per map would basically mean you drop the map after dying once, because it is a waste of time. Yeah certain unique maps and special areas might have to come with an added mod on them that penalizes XP by a small percentage on death (maybe 3 - 5%). BTW, maps are easier with 6 people not because monster HP is reduced - on the contrary it is increased - but because of all the shared buffs. The XP reduction on death is there to give some additional consequence to dying, since the loss of XP from an early death on a map would be negligible. Dying in a party where there's only one portal for each player is intrinsically punishing as you would lose any XP gained from your time in the map and also be locked out of the rest of that map (as per usual). And remember, gaining from this change is the whole purpose of changing things. Offsetting this gain is the challenging part so suggestions are always welcomed. Now, this idea that people will "drop" a map once the 50% XP penalty is triggered is expected. However, I don't think everyone would do this because they still want the (map) drops. If you've got the resources to skip high tier maps (ones that actually benefit lvl 95+ characters), then good for you - you've most likely earned it through time spent micro-managing and trading. I personally have a huge collection of maps and would still complete the rest of a penalised map because I want that loot. --------------- THE MOOCH --------------	Posted by Damoochie#1947 on Mar 2, 2018, 11:14:49 PM Quote this Post
" Damoochie wrote: Thanks Gibbous! Does GGG even read these damn things? xD I can assure you that they do. Wash your hands, Exile!	Posted by gibbousmoon#4656 on Mar 2, 2018, 11:24:21 PM Quote this Post