Let's talk about endgame. GGG, this concerns you too.

"

The_Scourge wrote:

you absolutely can and should make it MUCH harder to gain levels after 90. Hell, make it harder after 80. 75 even.

85 would be the lowest mark I'd take as acceptable. 75 as 'barely above white maps' is way too deep in the still ongoing char development.

"

The_Scourge wrote:

Make it so that only map bosses give any experience at all....I'm talking more about making it clear that if someone is level 95, you can tell at a glance that they've beaten THIS BOSS and THAT MAP.

Not a good idea to me - it would mainly force players into trade for maps they can't 'generate' by themself just for progress.

"

How do you approach endgame?

always, but late and slowly (highest char ever = 93, actual max (after xp nerfs) 90...91 (all SC)

"

Do you like the death penalty?

I dislike to die, I obviously dislike to "lose" another couple of hours - but I can accept and live with how it is.

"

What sort of endgame would PoE need to have for you to enjoy it more often?

I think I do (and enjoy) it often enough. A little less 'bad rng' on additional content (like abyssal depths lately) would be nice. I like that many maps got a lot less complex with 3.1 (at least from that pool which I did). I also like that it seemed that bosses are now better predictable.
Most disliked is overkill stuff (like the ground "effects" on the elder fight) that run out of control if you're not 'fast' enough. Basically all things that you cant really 'learn' to become better.
Somewhat minor: 'overkill' happening with multiple "additionals" on maps (xx abysses, breach spawn, master mission...) that (can) turn your 'just one quick map' into a full-hour-hazzle. And I hate to keep such possibilities unused... ;)

"

Damoochie wrote:

Spoiler

Firstly, thank you to the OP for all the extremely well articulated posts. It's obvious you care deeply about the game and have the writing skills to respectfully express your concerns.

My opinion is that the death penalty is, unfortunately, a necessary evil used to give survivability (defensive) mechanics real value; thus, increasing build diversity/reducing glass cannon meta. Also, dying basically makes you feel stupid... which is a good thing later on when you thwart another stupid RIP with knowledge extracted from the previous death (Lag and DC deaths excluded).

I do, however, feel the penalty is too harsh and heavily discourages players from running unfamiliar/dangerous maps.

My idea for death penalty is as follows:

The player never loses base XP (base = XP amount before map is entered).

Instead, experience lost on death is only the amount that was earned in that map/zone, up to a maximum of 10%.

Re-entry of that zone incurs a 50% XP reduction gained on kills increasing by 10% (60%, 70%, 80% etc) for each subsequent death registered in that zone.

EG. A level 90 enters a map with 25% XP and increases his XP to 28% (3% increase). He then dies but only loses the 3% gained in that map; reverting to 25%. However, the XP gained from monsters remaining in that map is reduced by 50%. He then dies instantly again but loses no XP, staying at 25% but the 2nd death triggers a reduction of 60% XP now gained from monsters.

I feel this system provides ample incentive to avoid careless glass cannon gameplay becoming the standard while also encouraging players to run any map they feel like.

I feel it also scales well with the leveling process and could be implemented into the storyline acts when the penalties start to kick in.

My only concern is that this system will be very lenient on those at very high levels. I'm ok with this as I know the patience required to reach level 100 is inhuman (I've done it -.- ), even if your build and map choices (case in point) negates any chance of death occurring.

Food for thought. Keep up the good work Scourge!

This is, without question, the best idea I have ever read for making defensive mechanics meaningful without disincentivizing engagement with more challenging content (as the current death penalty demonstrably does).

Way to go! I really hope GGG notices this idea and runs with it.

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

"

Damoochie wrote:

Spoiler

Firstly, thank you to the OP for all the extremely well articulated posts. It's obvious you care deeply about the game and have the writing skills to respectfully express your concerns.

My opinion is that the death penalty is, unfortunately, a necessary evil used to give survivability (defensive) mechanics real value; thus, increasing build diversity/reducing glass cannon meta. Also, dying basically makes you feel stupid... which is a good thing later on when you thwart another stupid RIP with knowledge extracted from the previous death (Lag and DC deaths excluded).

I do, however, feel the penalty is too harsh and heavily discourages players from running unfamiliar/dangerous maps.

My idea for death penalty is as follows:

The player never loses base XP (base = XP amount before map is entered).

Instead, experience lost on death is only the amount that was earned in that map/zone, up to a maximum of 10%.

Re-entry of that zone incurs a 50% XP reduction gained on kills increasing by 10% (60%, 70%, 80% etc) for each subsequent death registered in that zone.

EG. A level 90 enters a map with 25% XP and increases his XP to 28% (3% increase). He then dies but only loses the 3% gained in that map; reverting to 25%. However, the XP gained from monsters remaining in that map is reduced by 50%. He then dies instantly again but loses no XP, staying at 25% but the 2nd death triggers a reduction of 60% XP now gained from monsters.

I feel this system provides ample incentive to avoid careless glass cannon gameplay becoming the standard while also encouraging players to run any map they feel like.

I feel it also scales well with the leveling process and could be implemented into the storyline acts when the penalties start to kick in.

My only concern is that this system will be very lenient on those at very high levels. I'm ok with this as I know the patience required to reach level 100 is inhuman (I've done it -.- ), even if your build and map choices (case in point) negates any chance of death occurring.

Food for thought. Keep up the good work Scourge!

This is, without question, the best idea I have ever read for making defensive mechanics meaningful without disincentivizing engagement with more challenging content (as the current death penalty demonstrably does).

Way to go! I really hope GGG notices this idea and runs with it.

Most people would just trash the map after 1 or 2 deaths and start a new with 100% exp gain. so this really does not punish at all and there fore does not work at all. What is the punishment? To lose the map? Dont really give a shit unless its expensive unique map.

What's the main incentive to play an ARPG other than "having fun"? To evolve your character. The hunt for power. For levels. For gear. To make your character as powerful as possible - and to personalize it your way. That's why we have an endgame; to be able to continue this "hunt" after the main game is over. PoE is design in a way that your character will (more or less) never be perfect, so the "hunt" can go on forever.

The death penalty is an incentive to do better. It's the largest (only?) feeling of "failing" in this game. A death is, in most cases, a mistake. A human being is designed (well...) to learn from its mistakes. Without it, you'd have no incentive to "do better". You could push through every content just by using portal scrolls. The whole point in having a life/ES pool would be gone. Is the death penalty "fair" in its current state? I don't know. Can it be tweaked? Sure.

The biggest concern I have about the end game, is how "limiting" is is, even though both you and your character are more than ready to face everything the game could ever throw at you. When you, your character, your build and your gear are good enough to tackle everything, why limit the progression behind frustration? When someone can do 20 T13 in their sleep, without being close to death, it's just sad that they may not be able to progress.

But I'm digressing.

The endgame is a play ground. It's not designed for everyone. It can't be designed for everyone. Therefore, it's bound to be frustrating for someone. It's designed around doing the "same" things over and over again. GGG even rewards you more for doing the EXACT same things over and over again. But more than anything, it's a time sink with layers upon layers of RNG. It's bound to be frustrating for everyone in the end.

How do you approach endgame? What do you like about it,
- when entering maps I buy few chaos worth items and level up to cca 85. Than buy new items. Later min maxing character, usually by farming poe.trade as gameplay in this game is not really fun, but achievements bring me feelings I like so I go forward - usually to fight Shaper and Uber Atziri map. Only Discharge was worth to reply.

what do you not like?
- I never understood what is fun about rolling mods on map - focus on mods I dont like instead to try roll mods I like.
- The same is with leveling: only thing is to focus on not dying instead of gameplay. When desired level is reached than remade build to enjoy/farm two final maps - I want to say: all those 150 maps are the same only numbers are changing and those bosses who has stages or too much hp is waste of time so I skip them.
- Too much picking and micromanagement - I am picking up only some currency during leveling, as poe.trade brings me minimum ten ex per few hours meanwhile I am cleaning house, chatting with friends, watching TV, etc - u have idea.
- From Legacy micromanagement and AoE nerf + ES nerf later, game do not bring fun aspects: for example getting better gear as there is zero change in build once you enter maps. Only numbers on gears are different.
- With Legacy I felt like GGG is making joke of us, mock us, lying to us all time and they went over my tolerance limit: they said we play leagues we want to but it was again gated behind some stupid micromanagement stones. Or there is following pattern: they do something good (we play it), than they destroy it (we get wtf is that shit) and later they make another solution (in announcement) - but when we play it we find out its crap or bullshit again.

Do you not even approach it at all?
With Legacy stopped to play like I used to, except Harbinger and Dark Pact gem.

Do you like the death penalty? Do you think it is a good thing? A bad thing?
Its traumatic bond. Supporter pack: what a nasty manipulation that is..

What sort of endgame would PoE need to have for you to enjoy it more often? Or do you just love it exactly as it is?
Its beyond repair. As new player I liked idea that I can make character to beat whole content or get to lvl 100. Once its interesting, can be fun, but mostly brings satisfaction when goal is reached. If to do that again - no, its absurd.

"

You have my wallet and my heart, GGG, but you do not, in Chris' terms, have my soul. Don't you want it? Don't you want your game, even or especially in the end stages, to demand I give it my soul? Instead it sort of looks at my offering, spits on it in ways Greust never could, and makes me feel like my soul isn't good enough just because I'm not willing to get on a seemingly interminable treadmill for it.

There is no healthy relationship with GGG. It never was, you bough a lie, you paid for illusion. You are only number in statistics.

Many people miss logic here by longshot... death penalty in POE DOESNT:
- teach you anything - because the game isnt skill based thus your decisions inside a battle doesnt matter almost at all
- reward you for being good - since again, there is no player skill, just stats in POE. So you CANNOT be a good player here. Being no lifer doesnt mean you are good player and many people just dont get that harsh truth.
- help you improve your build - since you cannot change your existing character, you must create new one, and then you will just copy-paste somebody else build with is based on abusing the game balance state.
- tell if you are good or bad player - points above, plus if you think you are good at making builds then maybe you are. But by statistic only 5-10% of human population is capable of proper logical thinking with is fundamental in creating opie-opie builds in games like POE. You cannot ignore those statistic at all, and they tell you exactly that death penalty is totally useless for 90-95% of community since all they can do is copy-paste builds, since they are incapable of creating anything opie-opie themself.

What death penalty do:
- remove fun and challange - people are scared to try new stuff, create funny builds and try challanging content since they will lose more than they gain
- drasticaly reduce build diversity - you cannot play how you like since you will get smashed in a game with is balanced around balance abusing builds
- piss off many users - since the game doesnt really inform you why you died and what you did badly. Additionaly the game got many bugs that take the control from you. Just like the recent bug fix that they will implement in bestiary league with made your "reduced damage taken" almost non-existant at all versus buffed enemies
- artificialy prolong the game lifetime - since it put many people in loop where they gotta replay something that they already did, basicaly moar grind for GGG pruposes
- bolster ego of low-selfesteem people - psychological reason why many games now offer you almost everything on silver plate to give you illusion of being good at something

"

herflik wrote:

Many people miss logic here by longshot... death penalty in POE DOESNT:
- teach you anything - because the game isnt skill based thus your decisions inside a battle doesnt matter almost at all
- reward you for being good - since again, there is no player skill, just stats in POE. So you CANNOT be a good player here. Being no lifer doesnt mean you are good player and many people just dont get that harsh truth.
- help you improve your build - since you cannot change your existing character, you must create new one, and then you will just copy-paste somebody else build with is based on abusing the game balance state.
- tell if you are good or bad player - points above, plus if you think you are good at making builds then maybe you are. But by statistic only 5-10% of human population is capable of proper logical thinking with is fundamental in creating opie-opie builds in games like POE. You cannot ignore those statistic at all, and they tell you exactly that death penalty is totally useless for 90-95% of community since all they can do is copy-paste builds, since they are incapable of creating anything opie-opie themself.

What death penalty do:
- remove fun and challange - people are scared to try new stuff, create funny builds and try challanging content since they will lose more than they gain
- drasticaly reduce build diversity - you cannot play how you like since you will get smashed in a game with is balanced around balance abusing builds
- piss off many users - since the game doesnt really inform you why you died and what you did badly. Additionaly the game got many bugs that take the control from you. Just like the recent bug fix that they will implement in bestiary league with made your "reduced damage taken" almost non-existant at all versus buffed enemies
- artificialy prolong the game lifetime - since it put many people in loop where they gotta replay something that they already did, basicaly moar grind for GGG pruposes
- bolster ego of low-selfesteem people - psychological reason why many games now offer you almost everything on silver plate to give you illusion of being good at something

"since you cannot change your existing character, you must create new one, and then you will just copy-paste somebody else build with is based on abusing the game balance state."

What a dumb statement. I change existing characters all the time to compensate the fact that i started dieing in end-game. I have played this since beta and have only 2 times followed a build. Still i manage to make meme builds that can hit 95+ level and do the end-game. if i wanted to level further i could. Usually i just dont feel the need to. And no im not nolifer, i work 8+ hours a day.


"remove fun and challange - people are scared to try new stuff, create funny builds and try challanging content since they will lose more than they gain."

Im not scared to try funny builds and challenging content. Gues why? Because funny builds are not ment to reach lvl100. And because if i want to try something insane i try it when i have under 10% exp like any rationally thinking poe player would.

"-drasticaly reduce build diversity - you cannot play how you like since you will get smashed in a game with is balanced around balance abusing builds"

You can play any damn build you want. Its up to you to make it work. Stop obsessing about shaper and level 100 and play that fun build that cant do 100% of the content. Not every casual with any build is ment to reach the end-game. Its called a challenge!

"

Laskinaama wrote:

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

"

Damoochie wrote:

Spoiler

Firstly, thank you to the OP for all the extremely well articulated posts. It's obvious you care deeply about the game and have the writing skills to respectfully express your concerns.

My opinion is that the death penalty is, unfortunately, a necessary evil used to give survivability (defensive) mechanics real value; thus, increasing build diversity/reducing glass cannon meta. Also, dying basically makes you feel stupid... which is a good thing later on when you thwart another stupid RIP with knowledge extracted from the previous death (Lag and DC deaths excluded).

I do, however, feel the penalty is too harsh and heavily discourages players from running unfamiliar/dangerous maps.

My idea for death penalty is as follows:

The player never loses base XP (base = XP amount before map is entered).

Instead, experience lost on death is only the amount that was earned in that map/zone, up to a maximum of 10%.

Re-entry of that zone incurs a 50% XP reduction gained on kills increasing by 10% (60%, 70%, 80% etc) for each subsequent death registered in that zone.

EG. A level 90 enters a map with 25% XP and increases his XP to 28% (3% increase). He then dies but only loses the 3% gained in that map; reverting to 25%. However, the XP gained from monsters remaining in that map is reduced by 50%. He then dies instantly again but loses no XP, staying at 25% but the 2nd death triggers a reduction of 60% XP now gained from monsters.

I feel this system provides ample incentive to avoid careless glass cannon gameplay becoming the standard while also encouraging players to run any map they feel like.

I feel it also scales well with the leveling process and could be implemented into the storyline acts when the penalties start to kick in.

My only concern is that this system will be very lenient on those at very high levels. I'm ok with this as I know the patience required to reach level 100 is inhuman (I've done it -.- ), even if your build and map choices (case in point) negates any chance of death occurring.

Food for thought. Keep up the good work Scourge!

This is, without question, the best idea I have ever read for making defensive mechanics meaningful without disincentivizing engagement with more challenging content (as the current death penalty demonstrably does).

Way to go! I really hope GGG notices this idea and runs with it.

Most people would just trash the map after 1 or 2 deaths and start a new with 100% exp gain. so this really does not punish at all and there fore does not work at all. What is the punishment? To lose the map? Dont really give a shit unless its expensive unique map.

You're right, it will only punish those high enough in level to require expensive high-level maps.

Wait, wasn't that the point?

"

Laskinaama wrote:

And because if i want to try something insane i try it when i have under 10% exp like any rationally thinking poe player would.

Did you notice all the posters in this thread saying that this is the exact behavior that they don't like to feel compelled into?

"

The_Scourge wrote:

An absolute xp death penalty as a deterrent in PoE might work for some but it didn't work for me. All it did was make me think about the last X hours spent getting that experience and what other things I could have been doing with that time. And then I'd think, do I want to make that mistake again?

thing is, thats exactly how it made me feel, right from the start in open beta. This sucks, it feels really terrible, do I want to make that mistake again? No.

So I went away and looked at what people in hardcore like nugi were doing, how much % life they got etc and eventually through time worked out how to make characters that dont die like that.

Youre looking at it like theres 2 options, either you keep playing the same character in the same way in the same content and probably die again in the same fashion or you decide not to do that and stop playing. Theres a 3rd option, you decide not to do that and change your character so it can survive. I feel like the idea of changing what you are doing and learning how to use the games mechanics to overcome the challenges youre facing is not even on your table as a consideration, you want a way to get back your xp or have an alternative system of some kind where you dont have to care and can just keep doing what you were doing that wasnt working.

"

AnExile_onthePath wrote:

OK, I'll feign confusion. How does the fact that accomplished players geared to or near the max can safely farm difficult content translate to that I should be able to try out something new (and difficult) with no fear of dying?

if you didnt fear death then theres no point in playing surely? You want to play a game you cant lose in? Is that even a game?

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

"

Laskinaama wrote:

And because if i want to try something insane i try it when i have under 10% exp like any rationally thinking poe player would.

Did you notice all the posters in this thread saying that this is the exact behavior that they don't like to feel compelled into?

Imo that period where you can die and not care is a kindness afforded by the system, I dont even think its entirely intended, rather its just a loophole because of how messy and harsh it would be taking away passives and its ok to let people get away with it.

If it was to be changed I feel like the change would be that their deaths are made to matter when they have 0 xp too, not remove their deaths mattering when they have xp to lose.