Multi-Boxing. Finally. The facts.

I would like to make a small input.

I have not played Dragon Age myself, but I heard that you can control many characters, which means that the devs have intentionally designed the game such way.

Does PoE have it?

Clearly the answer is no, therefore the game isn't designed by the devs so that one player can control many. If one wishes to play multiple characters in a game, then that person should opt for games similar to Dragon Age.

However, this is the implementation aspect of the game, and such is not always in agreement with the devs' philosophy, and it seems like they are not against it.

In addition, if the devs explicitly wanted to ban multi-boxing, then they would've added some codes to block such actions, or at least attempt it. And the fact is contrary, as anyone can simply click the client twice and multi-box.

Now to the "ethics" of multi-boxing: The question is whether it is just an aspect of automation(=botting) or not, and the multiple loots for the multi-boxer. As a 1-char guy, I feel uncomfortable hearing these things about multi-boxing, because like many others I don't want to be left out from the gravy boat (I would love to get 4-5x the normal loot!). But personally, I've come to terms with it, realizing that there will always be inequality, and the only competition should be against myself, and maybe few of my peers.

Speaking of inequality, that seems to be the fundamental issue behind multi-boxing. I'm referring to the inequality of procedure, more specifically. It is without doubt that multi-boxing requires a better computer than just playing 1 character. Therefore, even though the opportunity to multi-box is there for all players, in reality, many cannot use it because they cannot funnel money on computers. At this point, I think it's safe to assume that the majority of the people who initially join this game does not expect to multi-box, but when they realize that this is occurring, they cannot help themselves to feel disadvantaged in comparison with those who multi-box. HOWEVER, like I've stated above, people in general should focus on what they have rather than what others have.

If human input is extensively required for the characters to accomplish tasks, then I do not find multi-boxing equivalent to automation.

From this I would conclude that although multi-boxing is a hot issue, the devs should either incorporate it into the game or add additional system requirements table for multi-boxing, so that it is explicit for everyone who is about to join this game that, "This is happening, and if you want to play a catch-up, then there's multiboxing for you. But if you don't have a good computer or money to do so, then we're sorry."

.. or just ban it.




The argument that multi-boxing will inevitably result in an advent of botters is just a fear tactic. For example, the "freedom of speech" clause in the US constitution is designed for the purpose of ensuring the freedom to voice opinions, but that does not mean that there aren't many people who abuse the shit out of them without a true appreciation (thinking of you Donald Trump!). But it doesn't mean that we need to outright ban the "freedom of speech," that would just be absurd. Now, in this case, the abusers of the "FoS" clause are not cheaters, or breaking any rules particularly, and botters are indeed blatant cheaters, but they are both using something (an abstract idea for one, and a program for another) in ways that aren't meant to be used.

The argument that multi-boxing is more challenging therefore should allowed for those who want it isn't valid, because you are focusing on one aspect out of many that this game can challenge you. Do you feel that playing 1 character isn't enough? How about reaching #1 in ladders/races, crafting, build developing, etc.? How about building your own system within PoE, such as organizing guilds and unofficial PvP tournaments? Unless you got some crazy fetish that you can only satisfy with multi-boxing, I think you might be surprised to find many challenges that come with 1 character. :)

Thank you, and TLDR = no comment for you buddy.

Good gods dude....did you just copy and paste?

lol.

I'll say it again, its not exactly small input...more like a small book.

But alot of valid points were made, such as it being poor sportsmanship and 'unethical' but GGG still allows it. I dont mean to sum up your well thought out and well worded post in less than 250 characters, but thats just it.

I dual-box in some other games. To me, each character is important, and I strive to gear each one as if it is my only one. It's a fun hobby for me. I don't attempt to exploit anything nor do I try to overtake people in PVP.

In POE, I'd love to dual-box. I solo content unless I can convince a few family members to group with me during a race, which has only been once. Dual-boxing would make the game even more fun. Each character would need items and currency. Each would need bigger stashes and fluff.

Unfortunately exploiters will not make it possible for me to do this. Multi-boxing will most likely be banned by GGG because people abuse it. Personally it is a shame as I can only do so much solo at the end. While that is my choice and my problem, it wouldn't be such a problem if legitimate dual-boxing was permitted and not ruined by those who are greedy and most likely have not and will not support the game.

"

Zalm wrote:

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Azidonis wrote:

The 2-3, yes from experience. The 50-60, just really pulling a number out of the air based on some of the actual numbers I've seen around the forums.

Those actual numbers on the forums, are trash. I have multiboxed before and there isnt an increase that great ever. You might go from 2-3 to maybe....MAYBE 7-10, but thats if your lucky.

From 3 to 9 is a 200% increase. And that 3 I'm talking about maybe 9 hours of gameplay.

So if we can safely say I have the ability to make 3 chaos per 9 hours of gameplay, and you have the ability to make 9 chaos per 9 hours of gameplay, then I am making 1 chaos every 3 hours, and you are making 1 every hour.

Translate that into 300 hours played. I will have 300 chaos in 300 hours, and you will have 900 chaos in 300 hours. That is a very large difference.

Of course, this is all theoretical and basic math, and the devs probably have better tools to measure such things, but it's still a huge difference.

If a solo multiboxer gets a total loot bonus of 250%, plus gear, then the 9:3 chaos multi/solo ratio seems about right, I suppose.

"

Zalm wrote:

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Azidonis wrote:

You can't do it if you can't find 5 people to work for you for free.

And the point is not that you should do it. It's that I shouldn't. It appears to be more a question of ethics, I suppose.

That point stands to you as well. Good luck finding 5 people to do work for free. So you didnt earn $60, you earned $5 just like me. Unless you found 5 people to work for free and DID get $60, because I can then repeat that and do the same.

The analogy was intended to read, "I get $60 and you get $3 no matter what." Of course, it's more like $9 to $3. :)

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Zalm wrote:

It is a question of ethics, but ethics have a small issue. Ethics are based more on opinion and views. Manson didnt see it that he killed those people, but the jury did, so he was convicted.

I'm not sure I want to turn this into a political discussion.

If you have two people with identical credentials, and you hire them both to do job X. Do you think it is ethical to pay one person $3 an hour for that job, and pay the other $9 an hour for doing that same job?

"

Zalm wrote:

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Azidonis wrote:

Also, this game is still very young. How much do you pay for a white, 6L chest now? 7 Exalteds? I honestly don't know, but with the way it's going, that 7 could turn to 49 within a year or two. And it would have nothing to do with the 6L chest being "more valuable", but would have everything to do with Exalteds becoming "less valuable".

This is true of any game without some kind of currency sink or economy reset. If they decide to occasionally reset the economy by way of ladder resets, than nearly every 'Economy is ruined' argument is out the window. The currency itself being its own sink(ie, using the currency to reroll items) well help filter out all that nonsense.

Ladder resets only serve those who want to reroll their characters. I think that GGG will pretty much cover the ladder issue with leagues and such, and I think hardcore and cut-throat will alleviate some of this.

What it will not do, is alleviate the issue in Default, which will basically become the economic trash bin of PoE.

Introducing new currency only goes so far too. As soon as the new currency is linked to the old currency by way of exchange rates and people cash in, the process will begin all over again.

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Zalm wrote:

Given, the economy will flounder someday, and multiboxers will do nothing but expedite the process. But I seriously doubt it will occur over the next year and a half. Especially if they continue to release new content, like acts, gear and thus introduce new reasons to reroll gear, like new or bigger mods.

This does remain to be seen. Although, the multiboxers will still maintain a 3:1 advantage where loot is concerned.

"

Zalm wrote:

Your examples of fun were exemplary and I will not argue them, because I have a different definition of fun, one that doesnt revolve around gear so much. My fun lies in the leveling and making of builds, which multiboxers dont hinder all that much.(unless the build is gear dependent)

Well, yes. If you want to play the game at least somewhat casually, then it doesn't effect you much.

But, if you want to play 'end game', then it can effect you a lot. For someone who wants to play 'end game' content, they are basically in debt the moment they roll a character. The character is in debt, metaphorically speaking, until all of their gear is godly, and they do not really have to upgrade it any longer. At that point, they are no longer in debt, but can begin to make substantial profits for themselves. It's not so cut and dry, but it is what it is.

And, if that is the case, which it is with very many players, then multiboxers with their (hypothetical) 3:1 advantage will have the ability to cancel said debt and begin making a profit over 3x faster than the solo player.

That, in my opinion, is severely unbalanced at best, and bad design at worst.

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Skitzi wrote:

Unfortunately exploiters will not make it possible for me to do this. Multi-boxing will most likely be banned by GGG because people abuse it. Personally it is a shame as I can only do so much solo at the end. While that is my choice and my problem, it wouldn't be such a problem if legitimate dual-boxing was permitted and not ruined by those who are greedy and most likely have not and will not support the game.

This might be true, it might not. Other games have issues with it, and GGG is no different. But no matter their reservations, most companies have decided to let it slide. Sometimes they do so because they have no choice in the matter, others might allow it for profit. Whatever the reasoning, most companies allow it, so GGG might follow suit.

GGG might have made a unique game, and be a unique company, but they have certain aspects to them that make them very similar to these companies. Similar enough that they use the same rules for their ToS/ToU as other companies do.

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Zalm wrote:

Good gods dude....did you just copy and paste?

lol.

I'll say it again, its not exactly small input...more like a small book.

But alot of valid points were made, such as it being poor sportsmanship and 'unethical' but GGG still allows it. I dont mean to sum up your well thought out and well worded post in less than 250 characters, but thats just it.

I wasn't saying what you were saying so it's ok. And also, why do you need to say that again when you realized that I've copied and pasted?

Also, I do not think this is even that big of a text to be called "a small book". Did you expect someone to express ideas with just few words? I'm no Buddha or Jesus who can just sum up ideas with few profound sentences. And there are many posts in this thread with similar size.

"

Skitzi wrote:

I dual-box in some other games. To me, each character is important, and I strive to gear each one as if it is my only one. It's a fun hobby for me. I don't attempt to exploit anything nor do I try to overtake people in PVP.

In POE, I'd love to dual-box. I solo content unless I can convince a few family members to group with me during a race, which has only been once. Dual-boxing would make the game even more fun. Each character would need items and currency. Each would need bigger stashes and fluff.

Unfortunately exploiters will not make it possible for me to do this. Multi-boxing will most likely be banned by GGG because people abuse it. Personally it is a shame as I can only do so much solo at the end. While that is my choice and my problem, it wouldn't be such a problem if legitimate dual-boxing was permitted and not ruined by those who are greedy and most likely have not and will not support the game.

Why not just roll separate characters on the same account, and play them one at a time? Do you want all of your personalities to play together? :)

i think its essential for trading to mule accounts.

"

Azidonis wrote:

If you have two people with identical credentials, and you hire them both to do job X. Do you think it is ethical to pay one person $3 an hour for that job, and pay the other $9 an hour for doing that same job?

I would pay worker a $3 if he did work. I would pay worker b $9 if he found a way to do the work in a third of the time. Or do 3 times the work in the same amount given to worker a. Then I would prolly fire worker a for being inefficient. But thats beside the point here.

"

Azidonis wrote:

What it will not do, is alleviate the issue in Default, which will basically become the economic trash bin of PoE.

Isnt this what Default is anyway? Where characters go when they die, win/lose, or get left out? Default is the dumping bin for the entire game. Races, HC, special leagues, all dump their chars and thus their currency into default, further inflating the economy of default. Nothing will change that besides periodic resets. The economy is bound to be utter trash in default, and thats a promise.

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Azidonis wrote:

That, in my opinion, is severely unbalanced at best, and bad design at worst.

I like to give GGG the benefit of the doubt on this one, as I do for any gaming company that reluctantly allows multiboxing, so I say best, unbalanced. I agree its not fair, and it should be handled, but it would be difficult and perhaps poorly planned to do so. Suddenly calling it cheating here when everywhere else its ok, makes the game seem less appealing, even if its less appealing to a crowd we dont want here in the first place.

Dont get me wrong, I hope they ban and call it off for multies, but we have to wait and see if they will be the first to do so. If GGG decides to be the trail blazers, all the better. They have already done so much with that style of gaming, one more trail blazed would just increase their fame.

"

BuddhaSpeaks wrote:

I would like to make a small input.

I have not played Dragon Age myself, but I heard that you can control many characters, which means that the devs have intentionally designed the game such way.

Does PoE have it?

Clearly the answer is no, therefore the game isn't designed by the devs so that one player can control many. If one wishes to play multiple characters in a game, then that person should opt for games similar to Dragon Age.

However, this is the designing aspect of the game, and such is not always in agreement with the devs' philosophy, and it seems like they are not against it.

In addition, if the devs explicitly wanted to ban multi-boxing, then they would've added some codes to block such actions, or at least attempt it. And the fact is contrary, as anyone can simply click the client twice and multi-box.

Agree with this, I will never understand the reason people need to cheat or test the boundaries with what they can get away with like children do to parents, and not just play the way a game was designed. I also don't understand how the devs think this is going to jive with competitive aspects of the game without having them trivialized into a joke.

"

Now to the "ethics" of multi-boxing: The question is whether it is just an aspect of automation(=botting) or not, and the multiple loots for the multi-boxer. As a 1-char guy, I feel uncomfortable hearing these things about multi-boxing, because like many others I don't want to be left out from the gravy boat (I would love to get 4-5x the normal loot!). But personally, I've come to terms with it, realizing that there will always be inequality, and the only competition should be against myself, and maybe few of my peers.

Speaking of inequality, that seems to be the fundamental issue behind multi-boxing. I'm referring to the inequality of procedure, more specifically. It is without doubt that multi-boxing requires a better computer than just playing 1 character. Therefore, even though the opportunity to multi-box is there for all players, in reality, many cannot use it because they cannot funnel money on computers. At this point, I think it's safe to assume that the majority of the people who initially join this game does not expect to multi-box, but when they realize that this is occurring, they cannot help themselves to feel disadvantaged in comparison with those who multi-box. HOWEVER, like I've stated above, people in general should focus on what they have rather than what others have.

Pay to win... albeit externally :D

As far as not caring what others have, do keep in mind that it DOES affect everyone. An exaggeratedly inflated economy could cause adjutments to the game's difficulty, as well as many other unforseen consequences. In D2, you pretty much HAD to use 3rd party sites, duped items, or otherwise cheat if you wanted to do Ubers. Contrary to most, I enjoyed D2 the most before duped high runes, torches, annis and enigmas broke the game to hell lol.

"

If human input is extensively required for the characters to accomplish tasks, then I do not find multi-boxing equivalent to automation.

From this I would conclude that although multi-boxing is a hot issue, the devs should either incorporate it into the game or add additional system requirements table for multi-boxing, so that it is explicit for everyone who is about to join this game that, "This is happening, and if you want to play a catch-up, then there's multiboxing for you. But if you don't have a good computer or money to do so, then we're sorry."

.. or just ban it.

I would like to see it addressed, but most solutions are only band-aids at best. The real issue is the economy and the greed and bad element of baggage that comes with it. Probably too late to change that now though.

"

The argument that multi-boxing will inevitably result in an advent of botters is just a fear tactic. For example, the "freedom of speech" clause in the US constitution is designed for the purpose of ensuring the freedom to voice opinions, but that does not mean that there aren't many people who abuse the shit out of them without a true appreciation (thinking of you Donald Trump!). But it doesn't mean that we need to outright ban the "freedom of speech," that would just be absurd. Now, in this case, the abusers of the "FoS" clause are not cheaters, or breaking any rules particularly, and botters are indeed blatant cheaters, but they are both using something (an abstract idea for one, and a program for another) in ways that aren't meant to be used.

The argument that multi-boxing is more challenging therefore should allowed for those who want it isn't valid, because you are focusing on one aspect out of many that this game can challenge you. Do you feel that playing 1 character isn't enough? How about reaching #1 in ladders/races, crafting, build developing, etc.? How about building your own system within PoE, such as organizing guilds and unofficial PvP tournaments? Unless you got some crazy fetish that you can only satisfy with multi-boxing, I think you might be surprised to find many challenges that come with 1 character. :)

Thank you, and TLDR = no comment for you buddy.

I disagree about fear tactic, the botters will surely arrive, if not already here. It is only logical, and happens every time- the patterns indicate that this is not simply fear mongering whatsoever. I'm not sure about your comparisons with free speech, but Niemoller might be more fitting (First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a communist). In other words, a self absorbed view about things because you think it doesn't affect you is much worse than standing on principle, no matter how much of an idealogue anyone paints you as.