Multi-Boxing. Finally. The facts.

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Wittgenstein wrote:

As I said, multiboxing - as I understand it, involves automating processes and that isn't promitted. multilogging - as I understand it, involves logging in through mutliple accounts but actually controlling the avatars yourself. this is fine.

Are people who are multilogging also multiboxing? probably, possibly. but that isn't the same as coming to the forums and getting tips on how to do so. Also, if you really want to do so, and don't care about possible repercussions, I'd recommend Google.

Bearer of bad news, multiboxing doesnt require automation. It helps, but its not needed. Replication or keyclones and mouseclones are not automation. They still require input to work. Automation means it require no manual input to function.

That being said, standard multiboxing techniques are technically allowed, though reluctantly.

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Imaginaerum wrote:

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arbait_333 wrote:

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geniusbean wrote:

they could easily stop multiboxing if they wanted to

it's pretty clear they don't see it as an issue and neither do i

power to 'em

i personally don't have enough memory to run more than one client at a time but for people that can do it then by all means, do it up

yeah apperently it is not an issue, and the allow it but they keep locking my threads when I ask the community for help in setting it up.. to be honest- this means that the mods on the forum are clearly not there for the community/nor do they respect the rules of GGG... this is sad, and I might just regret I supported this game after all :(

To further argue against you, your questions all involve third party software, which as far as I know and have read, GGG does not allow if it aids in automation, if they even allow any third party software at all. Your problem, again, is the involvement of a third party software, not your questions on the subject.

Mouse drivers have scripts and are 3rd party programs. So are the drivers for keyboards, videocards and speakers. Just because its 3rd party software doesnt mean its against the ToS/ToU. Automated 3rd party software is against it though. That means bots.

But replicating software(mouse/keycloners), such as ISBoxer is not automated in anyway, and is thus not against the ToS/ToU. Also 3rd party, but allowed. For now.

Oh dear god no.

Here comes the automation discussion again. I'll go notify TehHammer.

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SL4Y3R wrote:

Oh dear god no.

Here comes the automation discussion again. I'll go notify TehHammer.

New discussion participants = new students to teach.

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Gamer1975 wrote:

Ninja my loot? It wasn't /mine/ anyhow.

How about we group together, and I ninja every piece of loot with your name on it, and every other decent piece in every map for hours, leaving you with an empty inventory after 4 hours of gameplay.

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Gamer1975 wrote:

Get more currency than me? Lucky you!

This sort of short-sightedness is what causes people to think they can justify such nonsense.

It's not just "more currency". It's MUCH more currency. The difference is not marginal, it is ridiculous. People aren't getting maybe 2-3 more orbs. They are getting 50-60 more orbs. That is a HUGE difference.

If you worked for 8 hours, and did the exact same job as me, but I got paid $60 for that 8 hours, and you got paid $3, which is only 5% of what I make, would you be upset? Would you be further upset to find out that not only did we work the same amount of hours doing the exact same job, but I had 5 other people helping me who were working for free? Of course you would! If you say you wouldn't be outraged, you are either an idiot, or a liar.

And when it comes to economy, think about it for a second...

Item X costs 3 x Chaos Orbs, on average.
I farm all day, and manage to get 3 x Chaos Orbs.

Someone goes to sell item X, and wants 3 x Chaos Orbs. You see this, and you also want item X, but you have been farming all day as well, on 6 characters at a time, and you have 12 x Chaos Orbs.

So, you offer 12 x Chaos Orbs, and the seller gladly takes you up on the offer.

Say this happens around the game for a few days on end. Once people realize they can sell X for 12 x Chaos Orbs with ease, they will no longer accept 3 x Chaos Orbs for it.

Therefore, you have created a situation which 1) causes inflation, 2) greatly devalues the currency, and 3) puts anyone who doesn't multibox/log at a severe disadvantage.

The only option to compete, then, is for everyone to multibox/log, which only causes further inflation of prices, and will eventually make ALL of the currency pretty much worthless.

If you don't understand how this can grow drastically out of control very quickly, then you are probably blinded by your own greed.

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Gamer1975 wrote:

Spawn 25 minions? I'll find another group.

As if you group with other players anyway.

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Gamer1975 wrote:

Granted, some things about this game could be better (opinion) but I never let pixels control my in-game fun.

When your currency loses its value drastically, severely limiting your ability to upgrade and enhance your character (which is basically the whole point of the game), then your 'fun' is also reduced drastically where it concerns basically the whole point of the game.

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Azidonis wrote:

It's not just "more currency". It's MUCH more currency. The difference is not marginal, it is ridiculous. People aren't getting maybe 2-3 more orbs. They are getting 50-60 more orbs. That is a HUGE difference.

I assume with such intimate knowledge, this comes from experience. Or are you just making numbers up?

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Azidonis wrote:

If you worked for 8 hours, and did the exact same job as me, but I got paid $60 for that 8 hours, and you got paid $3, which is only 5% of what I make, would you be upset? Would you be further upset to find out that not only did we work the same amount of hours doing the exact same job, but I had 5 other people helping me who were working for free? Of course you would! If you say you wouldn't be outraged, you are either an idiot, or a liar.

This could be viable, but you earning that 60 dollars is simply because there are 6 of you, compared to 1 of me. Can I be mad? Yes. Will it make a difference? No. The difference is I have the capability of earning that same cash flow as you, by doing what you do. Its hard, but anything thats worth it is usually hard.

And I dont think you can judge what is fun for other players, but only for yourself. If he thinks the fact that he cant buy upgrades is fun, and prefers to craft his own, then thats fun for him. Maybe not for you, but for him.

The rest of your points I wont argue, as they are as valid as the conversation permits.

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Zalm wrote:

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Azidonis wrote:

It's not just "more currency". It's MUCH more currency. The difference is not marginal, it is ridiculous. People aren't getting maybe 2-3 more orbs. They are getting 50-60 more orbs. That is a HUGE difference.

I assume with such intimate knowledge, this comes from experience. Or are you just making numbers up?

The 2-3, yes from experience. The 50-60, just really pulling a number out of the air based on some of the actual numbers I've seen around the forums.

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Zalm wrote:

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Azidonis wrote:

If you worked for 8 hours, and did the exact same job as me, but I got paid $60 for that 8 hours, and you got paid $3, which is only 5% of what I make, would you be upset? Would you be further upset to find out that not only did we work the same amount of hours doing the exact same job, but I had 5 other people helping me who were working for free? Of course you would! If you say you wouldn't be outraged, you are either an idiot, or a liar.

This could be viable, but you earning that 60 dollars is simply because there are 6 of you, compared to 1 of me. Can I be mad? Yes. Will it make a difference? No. The difference is I have the capability of earning that same cash flow as you, by doing what you do. Its hard, but anything thats worth it is usually hard.

You can't do it if you can't find 5 people to work for you for free.

And the point is not that you should do it. It's that I shouldn't. It appears to be more a question of ethics, I suppose.

But, like any ethics, it can quickly and massive effect extremely large groups of people.

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Zalm wrote:

And I dont think you can judge what is fun for other players, but only for yourself. If he thinks the fact that he cant buy upgrades is fun, and prefers to craft his own, then thats fun for him. Maybe not for you, but for him.

Well, if fun, in this example, is measured by "your ability to upgrade and enhance your character", then you pretty much have 3 options:

1) Find an upgrade.
2) Craft an upgrade.
3) Buy an upgrade.

Option 3 is the most efficient, but not necessarily the most fun. I get that.

You have a brick wall 10' wide x 50' high in from of you. There are 3 options of getting to the other side of it:

1) Climb the wall. (Go over it.) ie. find a way to enhance your ability to scale the wall
2) Continually ram into the wall. (Go through it.) ie. ie build something that will allow you to break the wall
3) Walk around it. ie. just gather your available energy (resources) and walk around the thing.

Crafting is fun. Farming is fun. But, I would do much better to farm orbs and buy a 6L chest than I would to craft or farm one. If I just think its more 'fun' to burn twice as many materials trying to craft it as it would take to buy one, then yes that is my prerogative. But, if I am FORCED to burn those materials crafting instead of just buying one due to inflation and devaluation, that is another story.

If you like apples, it is certainly much easier, and more efficient, to just go buy one from the grocery store. But, when the price climbs high enough due to inflation, and your money is worth little enough due to devaluation, then by the time you actually get the money to buy an apple, it might actually be more feasible to have planted an apple tree and waited for it to yield its fruit.

Currency is currently most efficiently used for trading in many cases (let's say 90% as a made up number). When the most efficient use of currency, instead of trading, is crafting in 90& of cases, then you are staring the issue right in the face.

And if trading is more efficient than crafting in (eg.)90% of cases now, can you imagine how astronomical the prices of trade goods will rise before crafting is better than trading in 90% of cases?

But it can happen quickly. When I first logged into open beta a few weeks ago, Portal gem was at 1-2 chaos in value. How much is it worth now?

And that's just one gem.

Also, this game is still very young. How much do you pay for a white, 6L chest now? 7 Exalteds? I honestly don't know, but with the way it's going, that 7 could turn to 49 within a year or two. And it would have nothing to do with the 6L chest being "more valuable", but would have everything to do with Exalteds becoming "less valuable".

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Azidonis wrote:

The 2-3, yes from experience. The 50-60, just really pulling a number out of the air based on some of the actual numbers I've seen around the forums.

Those actual numbers on the forums, are trash. I have multiboxed before and there isnt an increase that great ever. You might go from 2-3 to maybe....MAYBE 7-10, but thats if your lucky.

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Azidonis wrote:

You can't do it if you can't find 5 people to work for you for free.

And the point is not that you should do it. It's that I shouldn't. It appears to be more a question of ethics, I suppose.

That point stands to you as well. Good luck finding 5 people to do work for free. So you didnt earn $60, you earned $5 just like me. Unless you found 5 people to work for free and DID get $60, because I can then repeat that and do the same.

It is a question of ethics, but ethics have a small issue. Ethics are based more on opinion and views. Manson didnt see it that he killed those people, but the jury did, so he was convicted.

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Azidonis wrote:

Also, this game is still very young. How much do you pay for a white, 6L chest now? 7 Exalteds? I honestly don't know, but with the way it's going, that 7 could turn to 49 within a year or two. And it would have nothing to do with the 6L chest being "more valuable", but would have everything to do with Exalteds becoming "less valuable".

This is true of any game without some kind of currency sink or economy reset. If they decide to occasionally reset the economy by way of ladder resets, than nearly every 'Economy is ruined' argument is out the window. The currency itself being its own sink(ie, using the currency to reroll items) well help filter out all that nonsense.

Given, the economy will flounder someday, and multiboxers will do nothing but expedite the process. But I seriously doubt it will occur over the next year and a half. Especially if they continue to release new content, like acts, gear and thus introduce new reasons to reroll gear, like new or bigger mods.

Your examples of fun were exemplary and I will not argue them, because I have a different definition of fun, one that doesnt revolve around gear so much. My fun lies in the leveling and making of builds, which multiboxers dont hinder all that much.(unless the build is gear dependent)

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Zalm wrote:

Mouse drivers have scripts and are 3rd party programs. So are the drivers for keyboards, videocards and speakers. Just because its 3rd party software doesnt mean its against the ToS/ToU.

It wasn't right for me to mention third party software, but you must know I was talking about automation.

Also what speakers have drivers?

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Imaginaerum wrote:

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Zalm wrote:

Mouse drivers have scripts and are 3rd party programs. So are the drivers for keyboards, videocards and speakers. Just because its 3rd party software doesnt mean its against the ToS/ToU.

I honestly have no clue how to respond, because I can't tell if you really think I'm that daft or you really didn't know what I was talking about.

Also what speakers have drivers?

Soundcards...sorry. I also didnt mean to offend thinking you are daft. I was just putting out there that 3rd party programs are needed to play the game at a fundamental level, and only automated programs are considered to be the illegal party.

Automated being the key word there. Multiboxing doesnt require any automation. It requires cloners, which are not automaters.