GGG's argument about AH/state of trade that is grinding my gears - 2018 edition

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Sickness wrote:

For example:
A player in act 4 thinking "I'll keep going with my current gear a little while longer and hope for some upgrades instead of alt-tab, search, contact seller, hope he is not afk and in the right league and still got the item".

That is a realistic scenario where the speed and convenience of the trading system has significant effect on the outcome.
Your argument is invalid.

And GGG balances it's drop-rates for whom?

The player that is inefficiently utilizing trade, or the one utilizing it efficiently?

The drop rates are balanced around the current efficiency of trading. Moving trading into the game engine in it's current state does nothing to change that.

Neither would instant buy-outs provoke changes in the current drop-distribution.

Since we can assume drop-rates are balanced around perfect achievable scenario's.(skill)

your whole premise was an echo of GGG stating the drop-rates would have to be altered if trading was made more efficient.
Trading, in the current form, in the current game-state under perfect conditions when utilized properly is very close to instant. So close from where it once came, that it's insignificant when contemplating the other actors like clear-speed and power-creep.

Your whole point lies on the assumption GGG balances drop-tables around people playing sub-optimal when reality shows a different picture.

Peace,

-Boem-

Anyway, i'm pretty much done, i said what i wanted to say and people playing PoE today will understand it.

If your insistent on not acknowledging the position of trade in the current game-state relative to character power and content power and things like crafting and grinding and see how it completely dominates the entire current game-state for most of the community, then i guess that's your issue.

GGG moved it here, by their own volition. Is it good, is it bad, i don't judge i just look at what we have.

Bringing up some nostalgic notion of what GGG desired based on their initial conception of the game is futile when acknowledging the current game and looking who is responsible for that state.

As a last thing, before you claim victory, i would honestly suggest you go play the current PoE and talk with people in-game a bit which will make my claims self-evident.

The ways i explained people currently use trade are accurate for a major part of the community. And no amount of reminiscing or describing inefficient ways to utilize it disproof my claims.

I am fairly certain GGG balances loot-tables based on efficient usage of the tools they provide, therefore i see no danger in implementing the current trade into the core game since the barrier to entry will not be moved significantly to impact behavior of current users of the system.(in fact, it will not move at all)

It would open up trade to a bigger part of the community and increase the volume of trades occurring, which i view as a positive thing for the games future. It would provoke players to stick around longer(tool to overcome frustration/discomfort) and have them enjoy the game in the way the designers intended.

As GGG claims, trade is a fundamental part of the game. Thus we can assume content is balanced around it and the experience of the game is fundamentally worse for people who are excluded out of that tool.

Enjoy your future head-banging, it was fun but i learned very little from you, sadly.

Peace,

-Boem-

We now trade more as opposed to five years ago because more "what are my options to progress?" are answered by "trade" instead of "grind" or "craft".
This is a result of trade being more efficient in more situations then used to be the case. Futher improving trade would make it more efficient in even more situations then used to be the case. It's not like trade efficiency hit some magic threshold below which the mechanics suddenly change.

For example:
A player in act 4 thinking "I'll keep going with my current gear a little while longer and hope for some upgrades instead of alt-tab, search, contact seller, hope he is not afk and in the right league and still got the item".

That is a realistic scenario where the speed and convenience of the trading system has significant effect on the outcome.
Your argument is invalid

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Sickness wrote:

Haha this is getting more and more ridiculous. Now we are at "it doesn't matter if it takes 30 seconds or 2 months".

Dude you are not making sense.


Here is a realistic scenario that completely refutes your argument:
A player in act 4 thinking "I'll keep going with my current gear a little while longer and hope for some upgrades instead of alt-tab, search, contact seller, hope he is not afk and in the right league and still got the item".

That isn't realistic at all. Spamming for 3 minutes is far more effective than torturing yourself with terrible gear. Did you know that playing PoE with terrible gear isn't fun?

And once again, if someone passes on having gear good enough for the content they are doing (given they have enough currency to actually buy it) it means the trade has failed. You created a system that is so annoying to use that someone would rather torture themselves than use it.

The way of doing things like this is simply dumb. Using similar logic you can argue that to make people cause less car accidents, we should break peoples engines so that they cannot go faster than the slowest allowed speed.
Would that mean people will go with that, or that people will start modding their engines or using other (faster) means of locomotion?
Create a system which is pleasant to use but at the same time makes fucking sense. Leaving things broken and claiming but it somewhat works, and we're afraid to break it even further is just lazy. Sorry.

And please, stop with this bollocks:

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Sickness wrote:

We now trade more as opposed to five years ago because more "what are my options to progress?" are answered by "trade" instead of "grind" or "craft".
This is a result of trade being more efficient in more situations then used to be the case. Futher improving trade would make it more efficient in even more situations then used to be the case. It's not like trade efficiency hit some magic threshold below which the mechanics suddenly change.

For example:
A player in act 4 thinking "I'll keep going with my current gear a little while longer and hope for some upgrades instead of alt-tab, search, contact seller, hope he is not afk and in the right league and still got the item".

That is a realistic scenario where the speed and convenience of the trading system has significant effect on the outcome.
Your argument is invalid

Nobody will even consider crafting an item themselves if they can find it on poe.trade and even wait few days for it. You only craft things that are either way overpriced or non-existent.
And don't even get me started on grinding for your own gear. Maybe you have months upon months to grind dried lake for your build uniques, but some people would rather prefer to use the actual trading system. You have been given SSF mode, why are you even trying to shove this to others?

Trade being inefficient changes absolutely nothing in terms of end-game gear progression.

^Don't bother anymore Perq.

He basically laughs with the notion when i say a person would wait a full month to purchase something from the current trade system when it is considered the most efficient route to character progression.

When that is exactly what people are doing right know when they farm maps for X amount of currency to then guarantee themselves their desired item.

People have realized over time that grinding and crafting for specific items is a pipe-dream and only for the rich and if they succeed at the process it's a lucky shot in the dark. So trading has replaced those systems completely for the majority of possible scenario's.

Which makes the relative barriers of entry irrelevant for trading as opposed to crafting/grinding.

If not, reality would tell us this in the form of more people crafting and grinding.

He lives in a fantasy world he calls PoE and probably doesn't converse with people in-game or have a notion of efficient playing.
Thus he is capable of arguing against the current reality of the game due to ignorance.

There is a reason why in the 15+ pages of our conversation out of all the random people reading it like four or five people have chimed in to back me up, while none have done so for his side of the story.

He has this notion of a magical barrier that can't be exceeded and projects is as being un-explainable.
When it is very easy to explain, if trading is the most efficient option in every single instance of the game for character progress, unless the market cannot provide for the need, then efficiency cannot be increased any further for that system.

Since that's the current case for PoE, making it instant does nothing, making it take a month does nothing since it triumphs over crafting and grinding except for a few exception rules.
Which i already outlined.(niche item creation, league start, top-end min max gear acquisition)

He seems unaware that in the PoE of five years ago it was very hard to accurately get a feel for efficiency relations of the systems since everything wasn't instantly made known within the whole community via meta/streamers/social media. So people would play inefficient without a downside attached to that notion.(lack of comparison)

Again, this is not the PoE people play today.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Perq wrote:

That isn't realistic at all. Spamming for 3 minutes is far more effective than torturing yourself with terrible gear. Did you know that playing PoE with terrible gear isn't fun?

Who said anything about terrible gear and torture?
If you can't adress my argument you should just shut up, not make shit up.

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Perq wrote:

Trade being inefficient changes absolutely nothing in terms of end-game gear progression.

The game is about more than end-game gear progression.

Too many snowflakes :/ Every noob nowadays needs a 6L and a full set of t1 uniques otherwise it's all vendor trash, completely unplayable and not fun

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Boem wrote:

He basically laughs with the notion when i say a person would wait a full month to purchase something from the current trade system when it is considered the most efficient route to character progression.

No. I laugh at the notion that a player in act 4 would do the same amount of trading regardless of a trade takes 2 months or 30 seconds.

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Boem wrote:

There is a reason why in the 15+ pages of our conversation out of all the random people reading it like four or five people have chimed in to back me up, while none have done so for his side of the story.

lol that's just demonstrably false.

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Boem wrote:

He has this notion of a magical barrier that can't be exceeded and projects is as being un-explainable.

Haha what? I have no such notion. You on the other hand have the notion that at some point trade efficiency passed through a magical barrier and became the most efficient option in every single instance of the game for character progress and further improvements will change nothing.

Any reasonable person will understand that there is no such barrier and it's all a matter of degree.

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Boem wrote:

When it is very easy to explain, if trading is the most efficient option in every single instance of the game for character progress, unless the market cannot provide for the need, then efficiency cannot be increased any further for that system.

Since that's the current case for PoE, making it instant does nothing, making it take a month does nothing since it triumphs over crafting and grinding except for a few exception rules.
Which i already outlined.(niche item creation, league start, top-end min max gear acquisition)

But trading isn't the most efficient option in every single instance of the game for character progress.
Here is a realistic scenario that completely refutes your argument:
A player in act 4 thinking "I'll keep going with my current gear a little while longer and hope for some upgrades instead of alt-tab, search, contact seller, hope he is not afk and in the right league and still got the item".


That post contained so many misconceptions about my position that I'm not sure if you are dishonest or just really bad at reading.

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Sickness wrote:

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Perq wrote:

That isn't realistic at all. Spamming for 3 minutes is far more effective than torturing yourself with terrible gear. Did you know that playing PoE with terrible gear isn't fun?

Who said anything about terrible gear and torture?
If you can't adress my argument you should just shut up, not make shit up.

You claim that if someone has a choice of either trade with inefficiency (because trade is inefficient by design - yeah, totally, and because of that it was created by community and not GGG, haha, right) or grind/craft, the amount of annoying garbage that one has to go though will affect their decision.
In other words, you suggest that there will be situations that because of the trade's bothersome nature, someone would torture themselves to grind for their own gear (while owning terrible ones themselves) instead of spamming people for 3 minutes to get something useful. You suggest that this 3 minute spam is CRUCIAL to this balance.

Not to even mention that this wasn't even the OP. I was talking about INFORMATION to new players about the trade and how the lack of information and clarity of trade system affects them.

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Perq wrote:

You claim that if someone has a choice of either trade with inefficiency (because trade is inefficient by design - yeah, totally, and because of that it was created by community and not GGG, haha, right) or grind/craft, the amount of annoying garbage that one has to go though will affect their decision.
In other words, you suggest that there will be situations that because of the trade's bothersome nature, someone would torture themselves to grind for their own gear (while owning terrible ones themselves) instead of spamming people for 3 minutes to get something useful.

Here is what I claim:
Here is a realistic scenario that completely refutes your argument:
A player in act 4 thinking "I'll keep going with my current gear a little while longer and hope for some upgrades instead of alt-tab, search, contact seller, hope he is not afk and in the right league and still got the item".

There is nothing in there about torture or terrible gear. You are making that shit up because you cannot actually adress my argument. You know that it's true.

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Perq wrote:

You suggest that this 3 minute spam is CRUCIAL to this balance.

I am saying that it matters if it's 30 seconds or 2 months. The idea that a player in act 4 would trade equally regardless of a trade taking 2 months or 30 seconds is retarded, and I am sure that you would not support it?

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Perq wrote:

Not to even mention that this wasn't even the OP. I was talking about INFORMATION to new players about the trade and how the lack of information and clarity of trade system affects them.

I know, but you and others clearly have some grand delusions of how things work and why things are the way they are that even your good points get corrupted.