GGG's argument about AH/state of trade that is grinding my gears - 2018 edition

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Sickness wrote:

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Boem wrote:

No because your assumption is they manipulate drop rates to account for that easy trade.

No. My assumption is that they manipulate drop rates OR let the game become easier.
You know, exactly as they said would happen and exactly what you are saying did happen.

That still leaves you to explain the magical barrier into the "enchanted easy trade land", IE. why the thing we all agree has happened would not continue to happen if they continued to make trade easier.

your back peddling.

When i initially posted that i want trading with it's current functionality's in the game engine your argument was

"no because GGG would have to adjust drop-rates for that increase in efficiency"

And now, all of a sudden, your saying "no because GGG would have to adjust drop-rates for that increase in efficiency or make the game easier".

And my stance has been since my initial post, there is no evidence that they have to adjust drop-rates if they implement trade into the core game. In fact, it's irrelevant giving all the other things they have done.

To me, the game is easy, i don't know how you can make the game "easier" if currently people are capable of killing shaper with a normal white weapon.
Obviously they can, maybe they will, it's irrelevant since they moved away from their "we make a hardcore ARPG" initial stance which supported their claim and stance on obfuscated trade.

Trade no longer supports the role of making progression possible but difficult, currently it supports the role of "you farmed x amount of $$$, here is what you desire".

Peace,

-Boem-

edit :

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Sickness wrote:

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Boem wrote:

If your saying that putting it in-game would be more efficient then that's not my definition of efficiency.

If your arguing that i somehow hinted at making it in-game and giving it more efficiency compared to current third party trading indexers then you failed to understand my post.

I don't particularly find having to press one-less button a size-able increase in efficiency.(alt-tab)
But it makes a world of difference in therms of QoL and player-friendliness.
It also makes the game as an experience tremendously better.

If GGG states themselves that trading is a core part of their game, then their aim should be to get everybody that plays to interact with it's trading system.
You can't state on the one hand "trading is a fundamental part of our game" and on the other hand obfuscate it's existence in such a way that it detracts people from experiencing it.

That's simply bad design or fundamental direction of the game.

Peace,

-Boem-

You admit that having it out side of the game creates a barrier.
Well that's the point. Removing that barrier would make it more accessible and thus detract from the self-loot and self-craft aspect of the game.

It's kind of funny to turn back 10+ pages and read your initial response.

Detract from the self-loot and self-craft aspect of the game, which we can find currently in the game, exactly nowhere apart from the specific cases i have listed so far.

If we actually had a solidified crafting system, your point would make sense. But as is trading already takes up all of the space where crafting could be utilized.(only exceptions are niche item creation/top end crafting and start of league since no economy is present at that point yet)

And self-looting is a byproduct of grinding currency to utilize on trade.

Feel free to point towards your little act 4 player that needs a weapon upgrade to disprove this stance.
Because obviously GGG balances for him and he doesn't simply need to "git-gud" and more familiar with the game since people are able to get to end-game without using any of the methods talked about.

God forbid, the noob progressing the content and struggling would utilize trade more often until he gains the knowledge to completely ignore it like everybody else until it becomes relevant.
(relevant for the player as a power progression tool)

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Sickness wrote:

*snip copy-pasta, no-thought irrelevant reply*
Your argument is invalid.

What? I don't even...

I'm just speechless at this point. My point has been articulated as well as I feel it needs to be.

Pondering a reply, but it's: "Head meet wall..." wait a minute... not gonna bash my head into this wall anymore.


...

Couldn't help myself... *bashes head into wall again*


This is an example of the thought process of a person who "will trade" in the current system (and knows about 3rd party sites and software):
I need item NOW.
How do I get item?
Item drops sometimes... just kill monsters and wait for drop? No wait.
Search if item exists in search of trade listings.
***Oh, wait, I need to alt-tab? Not gonna do it. ---- No, this doesn't happen in this line of thought for people who "will trade" in the current method of 3rd party listing/searching.

Continuing:
Item exists:
Gamble-craft item instead? Costs more than in trade... No gamble-craft.
Do I have enough currency for the price listed?
Yes - Conclusion: Trade!
No - Conclusion: grind for currency to buy. - Once they have the currency, they search again, and buy.

Removing the Alt-tab hurdle makes no changes to drop rates or crafting costs. It makes no difference in the thought process of someone deciding to trade or not. (nor do I think any balance changes are needed to be made harder here - because NOTHING changes with the decision to trade - the only difference with an in-game listing, is that more people suddenly know trade listings exist, or they're now willing to use an in-game interface to trade, rather than 3rd party websites or software, so there is now a larger VOLUME of trades occurring - since these previously non-existent traders both bring new items to sell, and increase demand for the same items that previously had a smaller pool of potential buyers)

Adding instant trade does not change this line of reasoning either, in the current state of trading - because trades are generally completed in -at most- a span of time that is faster than crafting or grinding to find that same item. (until the crafting is faster, or grinding is faster, trade will always be superior, whether the time it takes to trade is measured in instant-seconds or even a month for a rare item.)

You're not changing the efficiency of trade compared to drop chance or crafting gamble by adding an instant buy-out - as long as the item-in-need exists. (when the item doesn't exist in trade, you HAVE TO craft or grind until it drops)

Cost is not directly impacted by this change because of the speed of the transaction (although lower prices become more acceptable when you don't have to stop what you're doing to make the transaction happen - a bottoming out value could be offset by AH fees in an instant-buy-out system).

If it takes longer to trade than to get the random drop or it's less expensive to craft, they'll choose those options, but that's only valid during the story mode, really - and then min-maxing niche builds, as explained by Boem very well. During the story, you level up so fast up to that point, that waiting even hours for upgrades is inefficient, because you could complete the entire story in under 24hrs (some in 10 hours! - but this isn't my personal experience), you WILL likely find a drop that's better than what you're using because of the way rolls on gear are divided by level caps... until you hit the end of the story, and you hit maps, and leveling slows down, and the span of time between usable drops diminishes to near zero (this drop off happens fast).

Once those thresholds have passed, they'll now trade - a matter of hours for most items, even waiting a month or more for rarer items while they grind for currency - not expecting or even realistically hoping for a usable replacement during that time... according to what I read on these forums, since I've never participated in trade on PoE.

I already explained my thresholds, but I know I'm firmly in the SSF camp, only using trade as a last resort, if it were added to the in-game interface. I have a high tolerance to inefficient gameplay.

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Hopefully I've shed a little more light onto the subject.
In no way is this line of reasoning "invalid"... especially since this thread is talking about simply removing the alt-tab part, and just providing the listing/searching function in the game's internal user interface... not instant buy-outs (despite instant buy-outs realistically changing nothing).

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Boem wrote:

your back peddling.

No. I have consistently stated that I support the GGG statement on this issue and I have specifically used terms like "affects balance". So stop making shit up just because you dug your self another hole.
You are still wrong regardless if increased trade makes the game easier or results in changed drop rates, since your claim is that it changes nothing.
If you agree that it makes the game easier then you agree that it would make people trade more, since that is what makes it easier. Which is exactly what you have spend over 20 pages denying.

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Boem wrote:

It's kind of funny to turn back 10+ pages and read your initial response.

Detract from the self-loot and self-craft aspect of the game, which we can find currently in the game, exactly nowhere apart from the specific cases i have listed so far.

Well that is just wrong. Maybe you never use self-found or self crafted items, but that does not mean that no one does.

Here is a realistic situation where we can find the self-loot and self-craft aspect of the game:
A player in maps thinking "I'll keep going with my current gear a little while longer and hope for some upgrades instead of alt-tab, search, contact seller, hope he is not afk and in the right league and still got the item".

You can deny this all you want, but it still remains true.

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Zaludoz wrote:

Hopefully I've shed a little more light onto the subject.
In no way is this line of reasoning "invalid"... especially since this thread is talking about simply removing the alt-tab part, and just providing the listing/searching function in the game's internal user interface... not instant buy-outs (despite instant buy-outs realistically changing nothing).

I'll just point out that that was what i am arguing for and not specifically the OP, before you get inevitably shut down.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Zaludoz wrote:

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Hopefully I've shed a little more light onto the subject.
In no way is this line of reasoning "invalid"... especially since this thread is talking about simply removing the alt-tab part, and just providing the listing/searching function in the game's internal user interface...

Yeah it's 20 pages ago since I said that the argument should be that the act of alt tabbing is such a small deal that the potential downside is outweighed by the benefits of not having an external system.
Why people could not just accept that but instead had to spend 20 pages denying the extremely basic concept of "the easier and faster it is to trade, the more a player will do it" truly is beyond me.

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Zaludoz wrote:

Adding instant trade does not change this line of reasoning either, in the current state of trading - because trades are generally completed in -at most- a span of time that is faster than crafting or grinding to find that same item. (until the crafting is faster, or grinding is faster, trade will always be superior, whether the time it takes to trade is measured in instant-seconds or even a month for a rare item.)


If it takes longer to trade than to get the random drop or it's less expensive to craft, they'll choose those options, but that's only valid during the story mode, really - and then min-maxing niche builds, as explained by Boem very well. During the story, you level up so fast up to that point, that waiting even hours for upgrades is inefficient, because you could complete the entire story in under 24hrs (some in 10 hours! - but this isn't my personal experience), you WILL likely find a drop that's better than what you're using because of the way rolls on gear are divided by level caps... until you hit the end of the story, and you hit maps, and leveling slows down, and the span of time between usable drops diminishes to near zero (this drop off happens fast).

I am glad that you actually agree with everything I have been saying, even though you are trying really really hard not to.

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Sickness wrote:

Well that is just wrong. Maybe you never use self-found or self crafted items, but that does not mean that no one does.

Here is a realistic situation where we can find the self-loot and self-craft aspect of the game:
A player in maps thinking "I'll keep going with my current gear a little while longer and hope for some upgrades instead of alt-tab, search, contact seller, hope he is not afk and in the right league and still got the item".

You can deny this all you want, but it still remains true.

This is what you should actually be saying given the current game state.

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Here is a realistic situation where we can find the self-loot and self-craft aspect of the game:
A player in maps thinking "i'll keep going with my current gear a little while longer hope for some upgrades that can potentially drop in a minute or never in the coming three years depending on what i need instead of spending 5 minutes on trade to get exactly what my character needs.
And if i don't get that item within a realistic time-frame until i experience discomfort, i will still turn to trade as the answer.

You can deny this all you want, but it still remains true.

Obviously, a player is free to handicap himself when considering the tools provided. But those players hold no impact on GGG's balance.
It's why we have SSF nowadays as a league option, a league that specifically apply's the rule-set to take away the most efficient way of attaining character power.

Peace,

-Boem-

To clarify: it is my opinion, that there is no point, during the story, that even in-game listing/searching WITH instant-buy-out, would increase the realistic amount of trades to a degree that would warrant changing drop rates or balance in general.

It's just not really efficient use of currency while in the story mode - you are wasting your time and currency to trade this early. You're better off keeping your currency and waiting until the story is done, when you're at the level range to use the gear that you're going to stick with in your desired build.

From my observations: There is one major leap in gear from "Leveling Gear" to "Build Gear", and then min-maxing afterward. This doesn't change because you "can" buy every single little step up in gear because trade is just SO EASY, Why not? ... plenty of reasons why not - and it's not because of "easy trade."

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Boem wrote:

Obviously, a player is free to handicap himself when considering the tools provided. But those players hold no impact on GGG's balance.

Everyone is affected by GGG's balance.

And what you need to understand is that player is not handicaping himself, he is simply sticking to the principle of "if trading saves me more time and effort than not trading, I will decide to trade, otherwise I will decide not to trade".
There is no handicap, there is only sticking to the most efficient path.

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Zaludoz wrote:

To clarify: it is my opinion, that there is no point, during the story, that even in-game listing/searching WITH instant-buy-out, would increase the realistic amount of trades to a degree that would warrant changing drop rates or balance in general.

Ok, you are free to have whatever opinion you want.

I would like to point out that your last statement is meaningless, as we have no idea what would warrant changing drop rates or balance. What we do know is that any increase in the rate of trade for a player would change the balance for that player, IE increased trade makes the game easier. If GGG will do anything about it is an entirely different matter and not something I pretend to know.

I can split up the current progression that players go true with a funny presentation.

The story mode is the time the player runs around with a pistol, he can pick up loot identify it, swap on the fly and progress.
Due to power creep, no need for crafting/trading/grinding is required.
(grinding to me is the repetition of the same content over and over, i think i should clarify else you are likely to claim simply running the story content and killing mobs is grinding)

He has a 4-link, pops in the gems and goes until he reaches kitava 10, maybe he finds a 5-link and has a good string of RNG.

When killing kitava 10 the player goes and looks for a bazooka. He fixes his resist, fixes his health pool to appropriate levels(3000/3500hp min tier 1) and looks for efficient damage upgrades

The bazooka will carry him to yellow maps and into early red maps. On the road he might find an upgrade once in a while as he is grinding currency to proceed to the final stage of character progression.(take note, he is farming to move to that final position, not specifically grinding for upgrades -> these are a byproduct of the larger goal)
These upgrades can enhance his power relative to content but not to the extent that the final stage represents, so still fundamentally require him to trade in the future.

The final phase is the "walking nuclear missile" phase.
The player aims to collect top-tier items in every slot that he deems can never be replaced within reasonable expectations.(for example, within the duration of the league)
He farms in order to attain those items and sells of good drops in order to finance this project.
In this stage he will replace all items on his character to their final power level and min-max.

It's in this stage that crafting can potentially be considered as an option, if the desired min-max items are simply not available on the market or are niche.

It is note-worthy that the "walking nuclear missile" phase is totally optional in the current game design, since all content can be beaten with a bazooka.
So it is more a flaunt of the exile to demonstrate his total wealth to other players.
(also known as the e-peen or dick measuring contest, le-topkek)

This excludes crafting to what i estimate is probably 95% of the community if not more, since it's a fairly small portion of the community that even plays beyond low tier red maps to begin with, let alone have the sufficient wealth to start end-game crafting projects.

Using this metaphor, it can be said that people will craft in the pistol phase. And people do, but they are inefficient or have not enough game-knowledge for two reasons.

1) the phase doesn't require it
2) your throwing away potential funds for phase two in an inefficient stage of development

It can also be claimed that they grind but again, this is inneficient

1) there is no need for it
2) your spending time in content with low efficiency ratio's vs time spend (low item levels, limited pool of potential unique drops, very low margin of macro economical wealth)

Now you are free to claim that this is inaccurate or doesn't represent the current PoE and then i would challenge you to go start a conversation in-game with five random strangers and talk about their character progression and the different stages their character moves true.

If what i state is true then the following can be deduced.

the pistol phase has no interaction with trading, as such changes to trading have no impact.

the bazooka phase does interact with trading, the amount of trades is static to the amount of trades required to reach the basic thresholds for starting to map.(if the player needs 5 items, he will trade 5 times, if he needs 8 items he will trade 8 items.)
Changes in trading have no impact on this number, he aims to reach map ready state and simply trades a number of times until he feels comfortable relative to content again to proceed.
If he starts grinding and finds upgrades, these have no impact on the initial trades he used to get ready for maps.

The walking nuclear missile phase is an optional phase but again, will result in a static number of trades since a player has a limited amount of item slots.
He will grind and aim to replace each piece with an un-replaceable item excluding all needs for potential future upgrades.

Note : it is in this stage that players get rich, since all of their gear is maxed out wealth starts to accumulate in excess.

Some players will start doing this in the bazooka phase for two reasons

1) all content can be handled by bazooka players currently and it's usually the e-peen player that moves on to the final part of character optimization
2) their overarching aim is wealth accumulation and not increasing their characters power.

Feel free to like, share and subscribe if you enjoyed and found this post informative.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit :

Take note how i use pistol/bazooka and walking nuclear missile to represent these stages to accurately depict the current PoE, which leans more towards a shoot-em-up then ARPG and is accompanied by that genre's character progression style.

I might have used fist and shield/sword and board/holly scythe/devils lance of impunity/devils lance of perfection/thunder lance of decomposition as stages of progression if the game was still in the ARPG phase.(it's sort of fun coming up with these names)