GGG's argument about AH/state of trade that is grinding my gears - 2018 edition

So, it is this time in the year again - lets complain about trade. Thats something nobody came with recently, right?!

Jokes aside, I want to (once more) debunk an argument that GGG is using against implementation of AH. I'm not going to focus on AH itself, or whenever the AH is good for the game, but only this one argument against it used by GGG. They argument is:

There is already a disparity between 1% and more casual players. AH would be more efficient therefore making the disparity even worse.

I find this argument flawed on many levels. Lets begin:

The legendary Trade Chat and lack of information for new players

So, GGG is saying that the efficiency is the main factor which makes the 1% wealthy, and casuals poor. Well then, lets look at the game from new player perspective, who doesn't know anything, or knows very little about the game.
He logs into the game, levels up a little bit. Hits level 40, finds exalted orb. He doesn't know what it does, but notices that there is trade channel in the game. Looks it up, notices people are selling powerful (it his eyes) items, and they only want ONE of this orb he just found. Wowzerz! Lets get it!
The point is: there is literally zero information IN-GAME about the existence of poe.trade. Scammers flooding the trade chat with useless 1c junk priced in exalts know about it. The outcome is obvious: people who scam newbs get extra income, news get shafted.

The 3rd part trading software and premium tabs

New players not only don't have much information about how much they can buy with their currency, but they also have little information about how to SELL their items. They've already seen the trade chat and they may try learning prices from there. What might happen is that they start wasting time trying to sell worthless items on trade chat, instead of actually getting currency/items by playing the game.
But there is more - even if they happen to hear about poe.trade from somewhere, finding information about how to post items there isn't very obvious, neither.
While premium tabs exist, not all new players (and ESPECIALLY new players, who just got into the game) will make the decision to buy them. GGG argues that there are 3rd part programs that can be used, but do new players really know about that? Of course they don't - how would they?

The price fixers, afks and scammers

So lets assume our new player got through scam-chat, managed to somehow find information about 3rd part software to post his items on forums (this includes convoluted process of making shop thread, finding thread ID, SESSIONID from the browser... you get the idea) and now he start selling his items.
Great! He is now probably one in ten new players that managed to get through all that stuff.
But he is still a new player, so he doesn't know the prices. He bothers some streamers about the prices, and they tell him to check poe.trade for similar items. Of course!, he thinks to himself, thats obvious. He looks up the price, and posts his item. 5 seconds later someone PMs him to buy the item - hello, its your friend, Price Fixer making some more currency.

Trade is bothersome - only determined stay

Lastly, the point I've made multiple times now. The very fact of trade being bothersome means that many people will not want to take part in it. And as we all know, trading gives huge advantage, because you can get rid of what you don't need, and get what you need. Making (and leaving) it bothersome means that some people will simply pass on it, while other determined enough will milk it till the end of the world. Who is who in this scenario is pretty obvious, I think.
That said, this is funny how GGG is so stubborn about flask macros, but yet allows all sort of different trade macros that make trading way more EFFICIENT. Wasn't that the problem we started with, by the way? Efficiency being too high?

In conclusion:

To make it clear - I'm not arguing about adding AH here. In my opinion AH isn't even necessary. But what GGG has failed multiple times at is giving new players tool and information to get into trading without being burned and leaving. I personally find GGG's move of creating their own trade site worthless, because while it sits proudly on the main site, there is absolutely zero information about it in the game. The trade being as bothersome as it is means that unless you are determined to use it optimally, you won't get much from it, which is the very reason the disparity exists.
In other words: inefficient trade is the reason why disparity exists - not the other way around.

From a begginers point of view, tutorials don't offer anything, they pretty much tell you: Go out and find out!

"

Perq wrote:

To make it clear - I'm not arguing about adding AH here. In my opinion AH isn't even necessary. But what GGG has failed multiple times at is giving new players tool and information to get into trading without being burned and leaving.

You do know the easiest and most obvious means of doing that is a regulated marketplace with clearly read market trends and no ugly interaction with strangers out to fuck you over, right? :P

A new player is going to take one look at the bullshit yeehaw wild west crap we've been dealing with for years, think about pretty much *every other fucking online game out there* and how they all have robust scam-free, zero price-fixing marketplaces, and go 'how the hell did this game make it out of beta without a proper trading system?'

And they'd be dead fucking right to ask that.

Meanwhile we Diablo 1/2 stalwarts pointed and laughed at D3 for its RMAH when the only thing really wrong with it was the RM part.

As with floating life bars (which I argued against until I accidentally got to try them on alpha, and then argued for them most aggressively), I have done a complete 180 regarding PoE needing an in-game tradingplace set up. This Diablo 2 carryover was charming in open beta (almost as charming as drop trade was in Closed Beta!), but we only really put up with it because GGG promised us asynchronous forum-based trading with escrow and commitment to trade. That didn't happen. Time to bite the bullet and just do a damn marketplace like every other game, GGG.

(Except warframe. Of course. Somehow. Just googling 'warframe price fixing' gives you THIS GEM. Asked by a PoE player. LOL!)

Good post, Perq! Fully agree.

very well put together Perq

new players are pretty much not welcome in trade at all if you are an honest seller.

I'm personally for AH, as you pointed out GGG wants to avoid efficency in trade and keep "player interaction", while at the same time allowing trade macros and bots to look though trade searches and snip items quick than any human can. Not to mention scammers, price fixers and flippers ruin the economy.

"

The_Scourge wrote:

You do know the easiest and most obvious means of doing that is a regulated marketplace with clearly read market trends

Well of course. :P But given how stubborn GGG is about it (and some posters that keep on repeating the same old AH ruined D3 mantra, even tho they have no idea about the nuisance), I'm trying to avoid using that as much as possible.
While getting one would fix the problems, it isn't even needed. We'd need far more support, information in game, in-game-poe.trade (with some improvements to currency/map/bulk trading) and MODERATION of that market.
So yeah - adding marketplace would be far easier, but if GGG is so stubborn about not adding it, they should go with what they think works and start actually giving a damn about trade. This would also mean moderating it.
It would take ridiculous amounts of work, but hey, they are the ones who don't want to go with easier implementation.

In other words: if they insist so much on not implementing the obvious, they should bare the consequences of that decision. Leaving it as-is is just lazy.

Attitude is the problem for new players. When you encounter a problem and go complain instead of nicely asking for help doesn't seem like a way to success.

Pretty common concept to learn from mistakes, isn't it? The world is not going to end if you waste some currency. Besides many players go other way and keep everything.


Can't find if you don't look


What do you want GGG to do to help new players price items? Prices change on many items every league, as well as during a league. And again, so hard to find any info :( Another impossible search xd

Whats the problem with people choosing not to trade if it's too bothersome for them? It can't be that hard to get some items you need for your build, and if you want to trade for profit - once again - learn and practice. And what do trade macros have to do with this? Anyone can use those. If GG thinks that's ok for efficiency then it's ok. Or maybe let's ask to remove item filter too - way too efficient!

In conclusion - PoE is an arpg. arpg, in my head at least, is not a casual clicker where all the info is just given to you - have to put some effort to research. I don't know an arpg with a good (or any at all) wiki that just gives you all you need to know, everything is usually fan made and collected by the community. Can ask questions on forum too, not just complain about lab and insane death penalty in sc :D
Besides, you can't balance some people playing 1 and some playing 12 hours a day - that is what creates a disparity more that inefficient trade

Flask macros are not allowed? Why? And how do they actually find out someone using it? About trade i agree, it should be changed. Alot.

"

Cogburn wrote:

[things]
If GG thinks that's ok for efficiency then it's ok.
[stuff]

That would suffice for your response, tbh.

You can pretend that problem doesn't exist if you want to - I have no problem with that.
But GGG have already admitted that relaying on google/wiki to find information about PoE is not a great way of doing things - they've already added tutorials and in-game help (which helps a little bit, and that is a step in right direction). Mod description (what certain mods do, for example how ignite works and so on). These are good steps, but we need more - especially for trade.
So in other words - not even GGG agrees with you here.

"

PoE is an arpg. arpg, in my head at least, is not a casual clicker where all the info is just given to you - have to put some effort to research. I don't know an arpg with a good (or any at all) wiki that just gives you all you need to know, everything is usually fan made and collected by the community. Can ask questions on forum too, not just complain about lab and insane death penalty in sc :D

So, things are usually bad so PoE should also be bad in that matter? o_o
And don't you think that adding information in clearly visible place would be easier than answering every single person on forums?

Have you ever seen a sticker that said OUT OF SERVICE? So, you know, someone doesn't have to try getting an elevator, and then going to maintenance to tell them that the elevator doesn't work?

Why are you even arguing against improving the clarity of the game? What does not adding these things achieve? I fail to see your point here.

Personally Im for either full blown AH OR drop trading and go full SSF, not this worst of both worlds setup we have right now. But since thats doesn't look like it's gona happen...


Yepp, tutorials and more information is a very good suggestion to help at least some of the issues.
The new tutorials are quite good so GGG should be able to add a few more regarding trading.