GGG's argument about AH/state of trade that is grinding my gears - 2018 edition
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The thing you need to start understanding is that five years ago, PoE was a game that forced it's players to struggle.
It did so intentionally, power was not handed out in buckets like it is today, options where limited and so where resources. Grinding was a valid/efficient option to progress the power of a character.(hence we farmed fellshrine in merciless for 3 days sometimes to progress to act3 etc, we did dock runs and all that stuff) Hell, we needed that power to even contemplate moving on to the next part of the game. In today's PoE, you can basically face-roll up to tier 10 maps if you have game-knowledge without the need to craft/grind or trade. The game today is no longer the game of five years past. Trading has lost it's relevance as a consequence of power-creep, the efficiency has become irrelevant in the current game state due to everything around it speeding up. We farm ten times faster, we ignore loot drops (a hilarious notion five years ago), we get constant access to high tier content if so desired. Making trade more efficient five years ago would have had a tremendous impact, because everything around it was slower(increasing its potential compared to other methods) But today, in the PoE we play now, it barely holds relevance. " You realize what i find funny about this statement. It's exactly what people are doing currently. People want an item of trade worth 7 exalts? They farm X amount of time to gather the 7 exalts. They don't go and farm the item itself, they purposely farm the currency for a week, maybe longer, maybe shorter to then throw at the market and get what they want. That's how i am not making any sense. Peace, -Boem- Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
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" Well since it actually happened, that would make you wrong. " Yes, no shit sherlock. But if a player deemed a 5 minute trade more efficient to get that upgrade but trading took 10 minutes, he would would proceed to not do that trade. If the trade system would have been improved so that the trades were 5 minutes, he would proceed to do that trade. So very clearly the system affects the decision to trade. |
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" No it doesn't, since you state he can still push further with his current gear. I can ignore parts of an argument to and then win them based on that perception, doesn't mean jack shit though. Peace, -Boem- edit : " The system of trade effects the decision to utilize it as much as the surrounding systems or alternative ways of progression do. You can alter any of those and come to different efficiency ratio's in different circumstances. This obviously holds true, but also doesn't refute anything i have stated so far. You now trade more as opposed to five years ago because more "what are my options to progress?" are answered by "trade" instead of "grind" or "craft". This is a result of trade being more efficient in more situations then used to be the case. Doesn't change anything about the efficiency relations of trade vs crafting vs grinding in nowadays PoE though. Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes Last edited by Boem#2861 on Feb 14, 2018, 2:41:51 PM
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" No it really does. That he can still push further is irrelevant because your premise that players only trade when they cannot push further is simply not true. There is nothing about your argument that is ignored here. A player in act 4 thinking "I'll keep going with my current gear a little while longer and hope for some upgrades instead of alt-tab, search, contact seller, hope he is not afk and in the right league and still got the item". That is a realistic scenario where the speed and convenience of the trading system has significant effect on the outcome. Your argument is invalid. |
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" Yeah, and futher improving trade would make it more efficient in even more situations than used to be the case. It's not like trade efficiency hit some magic threshold below which the mechanics suddenly change. Last edited by Sickness#1007 on Feb 14, 2018, 2:51:46 PM
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" Who pushed that trade efficiency relative to other options? And who speed up the game ten-fold compared to PoE five years ago? I reckon it's the same people that are saying they don't want trade to be efficient. Saying "we wanna go left" and "moving the car to right" is a conflict of design goals. It shows they completely lost the aim to where they want trading to be and as a result it reached an efficiency level where it doesn't mater if it's instant or takes a week. People are spending huge amounts of time farming to then visit trade and get what they want. None of them are farming/grinding in the hopes of actually finding the item they need. If it happens it's a lucky by-product of farming to visit trade and guarantee the end-result. Peace, -Boem- Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
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" That's about as redundant a statement as saying "Well you don't need to trade/craft/grind to progress the story content currently so your argument is invalid". Which is also true. My premise that players trade when they reach an uncomfortable state of character vs content and they ask themselves to either grind/craft or trade and they answer that question with trading. And this whole premise was to make you see that people will not magically trade more if trading becomes more efficient then it currently is. Maybe i should bold "currently" so you don't go back to your dota 1 vs dota 2 argumentation skills. Peace, -Boem- edit : your claiming that a player will trade more then the game/content demands of him. Isn't that by definition "inefficient". In your eyes that should be a "good trade" right? Since he is wasting his time where he actually shouldn't. Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes Last edited by Boem#2861 on Feb 14, 2018, 3:02:59 PM
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" People who WILL trade, WILL trade, when, as Boem has said, their situation fits the threshold for wanting a new item. - and that item cannot be created through reasonable crafting - and nobody who trades -relies- on RNG for the drops; if they happen they happen, and usually you find something good for someone else's build, not your own) All this trading is even happening right now, WITH "prohibitive" trading speed bumps. (You say people are holding back because they have to alt-tab, but that's not the case with people who "will trade" - and then you constantly bring up instant-buyout which is an entirely different part of the Auction House debate, which would have its own implications which I think are good, but others think are bad, rather than the in-game list/search feature) Right now, the prohibitive factor in the volume of trade, (how many people participate) is that it's outside the game - not part of the game's user interface. Listing on a 3rd party website or in the same manner, only in the game's UI, doesn't change the efficiency of the trade process itself by more than a couple seconds to alt-tab. (that is the only change being discussed in this thread's OP - and is the only factor needed for this particular discussion.) That threshold (When traders want the upgrade) doesn't change with how easy or hard the actual trade will be in the current system or instant-buy out. Both the current system and instant buy out would be faster than grinding or crafting in 99% of situations (outliers have been explained by Boem) BECAUSE Alt-Tab isn't a huge hurdle that tips the scales of when they'll trade or not. Only using the forums or trade chat vs using the 3rd party websites would tip the scales for some people - those significantly changed the dynamic of trade. Alt-tab to access listing/searching items for sale is not a game changer. If the search listings/postings were all done within the in-game interface, I'd start to participate in trade regardless of the process (current or AH with buy-out)... but I'm a masochistic SSF player in PoE, so my threshold for WHEN I decided to trade would be pushed much further into ... probably just before Act10 Kitava, so once I beat him, my resistances would still be capped. The only earlier time I'd be tempted to trade, would be if I needed a build-enabling unique that just won't drop for me. Having an instant buy-out AH wouldn't change WHEN I want/need an upgrade in my gear either. It would not change my decision process because of how long a trade would require. (We're talking a potential spread of hours in most cases, even with AFK traders and false listings). As long as we're talking about a system that's done by 3rd parties, or other means outside of the game's interface, I'm not taking part in that sort of hodge-podge work-arounding, regardless of how fast the trade process is. Instant buy-out AH has many implications that provide serious QoL improvements unrelated to the listing/searching of items for sale that make me want the FULL AH experience, but in this thread, it's just the listing/searching that matters. I can speak for myself here, saying that having the two systems before me: list/search, contact seller, travel to hideout, trade, etc... and instant buy-out... would not change MY frequency of trading, if I were trading at all. Just ponder that for a moment and understand. |
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" That premise is wrong. And what exactly is so magical about the current level of trade efficiency? You just said with previous levels of trade efficiency it increased trading when it was improved, but you have not explained what magical property that made that process stop. A player in act 4 thinking "I'll keep going with my current gear a little while longer and hope for some upgrades instead of alt-tab, search, contact seller, hope he is not afk and in the right league and still got the item". That is a realistic scenario where the speed and convenience of the trading system has significant effect on the outcome. Your argument is invalid. " No, that is not by definition "inefficient". If spend 10 minutes trading for something that will allow you to do some amount of content in 30 minutes instead of 45 minutes that is not inefficient and the game/content didn't demand it as it was perfectly doable anyways, just slower. You now trade more as opposed to five years ago because more "what are my options to progress?" are answered by "trade" instead of "grind" or "craft". This is a result of trade being more efficient in more situations then used to be the case. Futher improving trade would make it more efficient in even more situations then used to be the case. It's not like trade efficiency hit some magic threshold below which the mechanics suddenly change. For example: A player in act 4 thinking "I'll keep going with my current gear a little while longer and hope for some upgrades instead of alt-tab, search, contact seller, hope he is not afk and in the right league and still got the item". That is a realistic scenario where the speed and convenience of the trading system has significant effect on the outcome. Your argument is invalid. |
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" We now trade more as opposed to five years ago because more "what are my options to progress?" are answered by "trade" instead of "grind" or "craft". This is a result of trade being more efficient in more situations then used to be the case. Futher improving trade would make it more efficient in even more situations then used to be the case. It's not like trade efficiency hit some magic threshold below which the mechanics suddenly change. For example: A player in act 4 thinking "I'll keep going with my current gear a little while longer and hope for some upgrades instead of alt-tab, search, contact seller, hope he is not afk and in the right league and still got the item". That is a realistic scenario where the speed and convenience of the trading system has significant effect on the outcome. Your argument is invalid. Last edited by Sickness#1007 on Feb 14, 2018, 3:18:38 PM
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