GGG's argument about AH/state of trade that is grinding my gears - 2018 edition

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Zaludoz wrote:

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Sickness wrote:

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Boem wrote:

You are honestly posting the argument that you can yield better(effortless) results with grinding and crafting opposed to trading?

Not sure what to respond to such a fantasy.

Example: A player goes: "I'll keep going with my current gear a little while longer and hope for some upgrades instead of alt-tab, search, contact seller, hope he is not afk and in the right league and still got the item".

If that's pure fantasy I must be a fucking unicorn.

Your argument is that the "alt-tab" part of this system is necessary to keep it a hurdle that makes trade too inconvenient to use whenever a person would normally trade, but instead says, "alt-tab? not gonna do it, I'm gonna Grind or Craft instead."

For people who know the trade websites exist, and are willing to use 3rd party websites or software, THEY DON'T SEE THE ALT-TAB STEP AS A LIMITING FACTOR AT ALL. The integration of such a searching/listing system in-game would only increase the volume of trades that would now be conducted by people who will not use 3rd party websites or software.

The fact that these things are outside of the game makes them invisible to many players, and even repugnant to others. Personally, I won't touch those 3rd party programs, no matter how much reassurance that they're not shady, among other reasons, some of which I've listed in previous posts.

This wouldn't "increase the frequency of trade" for me persay, but it would open up trade as a feature of the game, to me. (so I guess you could say it would be an infinite increase in trade frequency once I make a single trade)

I bolted two parts.

The first is my sentiment. It doesn't make it efficient or more efficient for people that are already aware of it's existence, but it does open up the potential for new players for whom it is currently invisible to participate in the feature and get a bigger "toolbox" to handle the game with.

The secondary is important and the misconception Sickness seems to be struggling with since he equates volume of trade with efficiency of trade.

If the current drop rates are balanced in an X way. And that X way equates to 1 person listing a decent item on the market every 2 hours of play-time for whom he has 10 potential buyers then that is just increased as volume goes up.

It does not get more efficient, there are not suddenly dropping 2 decent items in 2 hours of play-time.

Lets say as a practical example

1 pair of life/double res/move speed boots are listed and it has 5 potential buyers on the current market.

If the volume increases of trade now we have

2 pair of life/double res/move speed boots are listed and it has 10 potential buyers on the current market.

When people join the market place, they enter both as sellers and buyers, they don't join in a one-way-fashion. Exposing trade to a larger part of the community increases the volume of trades, but doesn't make trade in itself more efficient and has no impact on current drop-rates.

The only logical argument that can be made to say volume correlates to more efficiency trade wise is for niche/meme builds. Since a higher influx of non-meta items can result in the potential for a niche item to appear more frequently due to volume increase.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Zaludoz wrote:

Your argument is that the "alt-tab" part of this system is necessary to keep it a hurdle that makes trade too inconvenient to use whenever a person would normally trade, but instead says, "alt-tab? not gonna do it, I'm gonna Grind or Craft instead."

No, that is not my argument.

My argument is that the alt-tab part has SOME effect on how often players will trade, and the full "alt-tab, search, contact seller, hope he is not afk and in the right league and still got the item" certainly will result in decreased rates of trade compared to, for example, a instant buy-out AH.

As opposed to the guy for 20 pages have been claiming that "alt-tab, search, contact seller, hope he is not afk and in the right league and still got the item" is equal to "instant buy-out AH" in terms of how often a player will trade.

100% agree with OP. I don't give a fuck for GGG's excuses. Just look around at any modern games that support trading. The way it's implemented in PoE is a complete joke, a bad one. I refuse to be part of it, SSF ftw until this fuck fest is fixed. oh we want trading to be a core part of the game, but we don't want it to be efficient so let's make it shit. Brilliant.

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poeFan2 wrote:

100% agree with OP. I don't give a fuck for GGG's excuses. Just look around at any modern games that support trading. The way it's implemented in PoE is a complete joke, a bad one. I refuse to be part of it, SSF ftw until this fuck fest is fixed. oh we want trading to be a core part of the game, but we don't want it to be efficient so let's make it shit. Brilliant.

Do those games only have unbound gear?

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Sickness wrote:

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Zaludoz wrote:

Your argument is that the "alt-tab" part of this system is necessary to keep it a hurdle that makes trade too inconvenient to use whenever a person would normally trade, but instead says, "alt-tab? not gonna do it, I'm gonna Grind or Craft instead."

No, that is not my argument.

My argument is that the alt-tab part has SOME effect on how often players will trade, and the full "alt-tab, search, contact seller, hope he is not afk and in the right league and still got the item" certainly will result in decreased rates of trade compared to, for example, a instant buy-out AH.

As opposed to the guy for 20 pages have been claiming that "alt-tab, search, contact seller, hope he is not afk and in the right league and still got the item" is equal to "instant buy-out AH" in terms of how often a player will trade.

Your not reading his post and there is nothing wrong with my sentiment in the current game state.

A person trades when he experiences discomfort in progression of his character, whether it takes 5 minutes, requires an alt tab or is instant has no correlation to the discomfort that propels him to trade.

Your saying that people will suddenly experience more discomfort in the game when instant buy-outs are enabled.

Pleasantly mentioning that i am not in favor of instant buy-outs for other reasons mentioned previously.

There is no correlation between the discomfort that propels a player to look for ways to attain more character power and efficiency of trade. A player will look for the best possible way to attain that character power.

If that's crafting, it's crafting
If that's grinding, it's grinding
If it's trading, it's trading (irrelevant of trading method)

I have no issue with crafting being the most efficient route to character power, this is already the case when trading/grinding is not the most efficient route.
(end-game min maxing, early league, niche item acquisition,SSF)

I have no issue with grinding being the most efficient route to character power, this is already the case when crafting/trading is not the most efficient route.(SSF, boss drop loot tables if all requirements are met to do the encounter, divination target farming)

All of these functions already hold a place in the core game where they can result in being the most efficient route.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Sickness wrote:

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poeFan2 wrote:

100% agree with OP. I don't give a fuck for GGG's excuses. Just look around at any modern games that support trading. The way it's implemented in PoE is a complete joke, a bad one. I refuse to be part of it, SSF ftw until this fuck fest is fixed. oh we want trading to be a core part of the game, but we don't want it to be efficient so let's make it shit. Brilliant.

Do those games only have unbound gear?

PoE has unbound gear because 95% of all drops are literally garbage. If you couldn't sell some in any trading system, most people wouldn't have any good items at all.

GGG makes this process very painful by their antique standards. Their excuses are so transparent, it hurts to listen every time.

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Boem wrote:

Your not reading his post and there is nothing wrong with my sentiment in the current game state.

A person trades when he experiences discomfort in progression of his character, whether it takes 5 minutes, requires an alt tab or is instant has no correlation to the discomfort that propels him to trade.

Your saying that people will suddenly experience more discomfort in the game when instant buy-outs are enabled.

There is no threshold for player power vs content for discomfort. It's a matter of degree.

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Boem wrote:

There is no correlation between the discomfort that propels a player to look for ways to attain more character power and efficiency of trade. A player will look for the best possible way to attain that character power.

Yes there is. You have said it yourself: "Will my time spend trading be less then the time spend crafting or grinding a zone to reach the same net-result item-wise".

Thus the time it takes to trade affects the decision of whether or or not to trade.

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Sickness wrote:

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Boem wrote:

Your not reading his post and there is nothing wrong with my sentiment in the current game state.

A person trades when he experiences discomfort in progression of his character, whether it takes 5 minutes, requires an alt tab or is instant has no correlation to the discomfort that propels him to trade.

Your saying that people will suddenly experience more discomfort in the game when instant buy-outs are enabled.

There is no threshold for player power vs content for discomfort. It's a matter of degree.

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Boem wrote:

There is no correlation between the discomfort that propels a player to look for ways to attain more character power and efficiency of trade. A player will look for the best possible way to attain that character power.

Yes there is. You have said it yourself: "Will my time spend trading be less then the time spend crafting or grinding a zone to reach the same net-result item-wise".

Thus the time it takes to trade affects the decision of whether or or not to trade.

(and you're quibbling over a matter of a few seconds spent Alt-tabbing, instead of using an in-game listing/searching feature that has the exact same functionality as the 3rd party websites and software.) I don't think that's a meaningful amount of time to factor into this time frame that leads one to trade or not.

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Zaludoz wrote:

(and you're quibbling over a matter of a few seconds spent Alt-tabbing, instead of using an in-game listing/searching feature that has the exact same functionality as the 3rd party websites and software.) I don't think that's a meaningful amount of time to factor into this time frame that leads one to trade or not.

I respect that opinion. That's what I have been telling the other guy that he should say for pages now.
Instead he walked down a path that makes him have to deny that an instant buy-out AH would lead one to trade more often.

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Sickness wrote:

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Boem wrote:

Your not reading his post and there is nothing wrong with my sentiment in the current game state.

A person trades when he experiences discomfort in progression of his character, whether it takes 5 minutes, requires an alt tab or is instant has no correlation to the discomfort that propels him to trade.

Your saying that people will suddenly experience more discomfort in the game when instant buy-outs are enabled.

There is no threshold for player power vs content for discomfort. It's a matter of degree.

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Boem wrote:

There is no correlation between the discomfort that propels a player to look for ways to attain more character power and efficiency of trade. A player will look for the best possible way to attain that character power.

Yes there is. You have said it yourself: "Will my time spend trading be less then the time spend crafting or grinding a zone to reach the same net-result item-wise".

Thus the time it takes to trade affects the decision of whether or or not to trade.

Yeah, players don't die to content and the game isn't out to punish players with low power relative to content.

I already explained the "matter of degree" it's skill and game-knowledge which i already accounted for.

Instant buy-outs will not suddenly move the baseline of discomfort of a player without skill, neither will it move the baseline of discomfort for a skilled player.

Because the method of trading is irrelevant to the gamers experience of his character vs content.

The method of trading is only relevant when contemplating the efficiency of various routes to power.
And trading could take five hours to complete and then it "might" be on par with grinding in therms of efficiency. And i say might, cause in an RNG drop system there is no guarantee of this.
Similar with crafting.

There is a reason that people already utilized trading five years ago as a route to power, when you where forced to browse individual items in forum shops.

Because the game never facilitated a relevant crafting system or a targeted grinding method.

Instead it opted to implement trade to equalize odds over long periods of time.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : let me ask you this.

How many times do you trade on a character from act1 to act10 kitava?