GGG's argument about AH/state of trade that is grinding my gears - 2018 edition

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Boem wrote:

Your position is that a player who trades 10/10 times now to be efficient will start trading 11/10 times when you implement trade in the game engine itself.

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Sickness wrote:

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Boem wrote:

Your position is that a player who trades 10/10 times now to be efficient will start trading 11/10 times when you implement trade in the game engine itself.

So you are really sticking to it.
The idea that players would not trade more even if they implemented an instant buy-out AH is frankly the most ridiculous thing I have read in a long while.

Pro tip: No one outside your bubble will ever take you seriously when you base your arguments on obvious falsehood like that.

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Boem wrote:

What i want is in-game functionality.

Nothing about trading needs to be changed(method utilized currently as a baseline) to accommodate players, what i do find relevant is the fact people need to move to outside sources to accomplish those tasks.

Then again this falls in line with many of the things i find troublesome within the current state of the game.

- log out macro, why exactly isn't this implemented as a UI button inside the core functionality of the game if it is indeed a "requirement" for a player to experience the game.(deduction based on GGG statement around log out macro's utility as a balance tool)

- PoE trade, why doesn't GGG have it's own indexer that accumulates the data and makes it directly available inside the game environment(with same utility as currently available)

- macro's that are currently allowed by GGG (price comparison tools etc to actively gauge price value's within the economic environment)
What's the justification for not building these into the core game if they are allowed. They obviously grant an advantage to the users else they would not be developed as third-party-tools and since they are allowed by GGG why not build them in?

It is extremely confusing that GGG states themselves that the economy is a fundamental and important part of the game, yet have done nothing to actually incorporate it within the game's environment.

Even GGG's own alternative to PoE.trade is a fucking web-page based indexer, rather then an incorporated trade search index tool in-game. That's saying a lot in my opinion and shows how disconnected they are with actual QoL improvements.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Sickness wrote:

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Perq wrote:

It is literally in the OP. No, you do not understand what I mean.

The quote is concerning how many people trade, is it not? I am talking about how much a given player is trading. The idea that you either trade "always, for everything, all the time" independent of the trading system or don't trade at all is simply wrong.

To make this point clear, imagine the PoE with only the trade chats as a trading system, and PoE with a full blown instant buy-out AH. You would surely agree that people who trade would tend to trade more in the second example than in the first?
If the upgraded weapon for the new act is 3 clicks away instead of 10 minutes of spamming it would surely affect the decision of buying, right?

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Boem wrote:

Who the fuck ever mentioned an instant buy-out AH except for you in this conversation.

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Boem wrote:

edit : i expect an exact quote in this thread where i am asking for an instant buy-out AH to be implemented in the game engine.

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Boem wrote:

What i want is in-game functionality.

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Perq wrote:

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Sickness wrote:

The quote is concerning how many people trade, is it not? I am talking about how much a given player is trading. The idea that you either trade "always, for everything, all the time" independent of the trading system or don't trade at all is simply wrong.

To make this point clear, imagine the PoE with only the trade chats as a trading system, and PoE with a full blown instant buy-out AH. You would surely agree that people who trade would tend to trade more in the second example than in the first?
If the upgraded weapon for the new act is 3 clicks away instead of 10 minutes of spamming it would surely affect the decision of buying, right?

Oh, sure it would. If there would be no poe.trade, I'd long quit. So yes, that would affect my decision of buying.
You seem to be thinking that if people are unable to trade to have a good experience, they will bash their heads against the wall to play PoE, no matter what.
The reality is: people have shitty gear, but they also don't want to bother with trade. They get stuck because their gear sucks, they stop playing.

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Zaludoz wrote:

I agree with Boem's logic.

I disagree with Sickness's refusal to acknowledge "Trade" as one of the Pillars of PoE's design philosophy. (They don't emphasize crafting at all - it's like a red herring thrown in to mislead players into thinking it's an option for the poor, when it's really the playground of the rich who have currency to "throw away")

As a non-trader in PoE, but a prolific trader in other games, I'd say an in-game interface is the first step toward making PoE feel like a finished project. Right now, Path of Exile SAYS "I'm balanced around trade. It's my core feature. But I don't have any searching or listing features as a part of my User Interface, unless you count trade chat and the grouping message boards." And I think that's a problem, because trade isn't in the game because it's in the game, it's because players - not the game devs - have made the tools that make it possible, and the devs seem to be fighting tooth and nail against having EVERYONE engage in trade.

(but the game is built and balanced around the assumption that everyone is trading.)

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The_Scourge wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

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The_Scourge wrote:

Time to bite the bullet and just do a damn marketplace like every other game, GGG.

Yeah because nothing screams really cool game then homogenization.

than, and you actually meant to say 'like'. 'nothing screams cool game LIKE homogenization'.

And I don't think a game that copies large chunks of D2's systems, look and ideas has a leg to stand on regarding NOT being homogenised if your idea of homogenisation is 'doing what works even though other games do it', oh wait, maybe they do it BECAUSE IT FUCKING WORKS I DUNNO CALL ME CRAZY OR SOMETHING.

As if PoE doesn't do enough of its own to stand out whether or not it has a functional but standard marketplace. I can see it now. Players will all be like, 'man, that PoE, it was so original and different and then they added a marketplace and oh my god it's like GGG don't you do anything but copy others!?'....HAHAHAHAHAHAH right. Most players would be too busy praising the GGGods they no longer need to deal with bullshit like price fixing and rude traders and bait and switch scams to give a fuck.

You've made some dumb arguments in the past but this is definitely in the top 10%.

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The_Scourge wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

AH does not fit the idea of an ARPG, if you want an AH in an ARPG game then find me one where it works\worked.


You won't find one because it doesnt fucking work in the genre of game, but you know what lets dumb down the game as much as possible so its easier to digest.

It worked just fine in D3 once they got rid of the RM aspect of it.

And I can bounce that argument right back at you: find me an ARPG that is so obsessed with the trade aspect that it overshadows balance decisions even for those players who don't trade. Diablo 2's trading scene was accidental and organic -- Blizzard didn't change large chunks of the metagame around it. GGG liked that trade aspect and tried to make it a highlight but it's mostly blown up in their faces because it's not 2001 anymore and people expect a lot more streamlining in their online trading experiences. They're literally shoving an antiquated model down our throats because that model was part of a game that ruled two decades ago. TWO. DECADES.

Now had they managed to implement the promised/much talked about forum trading system, this wouldn't be an issue. Instead it'd be in line with so much else of PoE as an innovative mix of new and old. But they haven't. Five years plus and we're still using the same trading system we had in Open Beta, which is only one crucial step more complicated than what we had in Closed Beta with drop trades. Basically we went from Diablo 1 style trading in Closed Beta to Diablo 2 style trading in Open. GGG had the chance to evolve beyond that and we all know they had plans to from the start...but they haven't, like I said, and what we have now is not working. Well, it's working for GGG because people are still supporting and the economy is very fascinating and chaotic. And scammers sure love it. Price fixers are all over it. And MAYBE GGG are perfectly okay with that. I don't think that'd make them any worse as people if so. Although it'd be nice if they'd take a stance either way. As it is, we're still in the same fucking limbo we've been in since 2012. 'Where are the trade improvements?' 'Coming'.

The only thing they've done since then is support the third party indexers until said indexers became the standard, and GGG could do nothing but provide a back-up indexer in case said third party indexers ever go south. Whoopdeefuckingdo.

Are GGG okay with scammers and market manipulators? Many would and do argue yes, based on the fact that GGG do nothing about it. I'm still a bit more lenient there. I don't think they're okay with it but I do think they're struggling to find a solution that doesn't involve that so-called homogenisation you so scathingly mentioned. Clearly the forum based system is less and less of a reality, to the point where even if they did suddenly implement it, it may well be too complicated and strange to draw people away from poe.trade.

This all comes back to GGG failing to implement a core feature talked about from the start. We 'put up' with the trading conditions back then because of that feature's possibility. What we have now *was never meant to be permanent*. And while these things can turn out okay, I don't think this one has.

So we're left with fairly limited options here:

a) Continue as is, with GGG being constantly called out on their inability to deal with scammers/price fixers, thus making PoE look pretty bad, but not necessarily affecting their profits unless outright admit they can't do shit about the situation;

b) Implement a bog-standard marketplace with no price fixing, commitment to trade and the usual, for which some players might call PoE 'homogeneous' and GGG 'liars', but would reduce player acrimony;

c) Do something else, be it the forum-based trading or some other innovative solution that somehow has the same fluidity as a marketplace but isn't a marketplace;

or

d) Continue as is but with an active staff responding to and investigating scam reports, price fixing, etc. This would be ridiculously cost-ineffective.

I believe anyone arguing against option B is either holding out for option C or is okay with Option A, hoping for Option D instead.

Until fairly recently I was in the option C camp. GGG have repeatedly revolutionised the ARPG genre. Surely they could do the same in regards to trade!...No, I don't think so. Not anymore.

I think a bog-standard marketplace would do little to rob PoE of all that it does well. It would put to bed probably the biggest problem haunting GGG since the beta, and allow them to focus on other things. Okay, it would remove that 'human' element but if that human element is mostly contentious rather than amicable, fuck, kiss it goodbye I say. GGG wanted a barter system where people negotiate and dicker, but it's fairly clear that didn't eventuate. PoE is a time-sensitive game where people will bitch if they have to do something that takes 5 seconds extra each time, because it all adds up. And they really think a barter system where people have to sit down and go back and forth to reach an agreement is going to work? LOL such naivete is overwhelming.

So yeah, I've landed squarely in the 'eat that humble pie, GGG, do a marketplace and move on' camp. Admit that despite the game's many achievements, despite PoE remaining the best ARPG ever, the planned trading system just isn't feasible now. What's in place was never meant to be permanent, so say: we're saying sorry, very much sorry, but a marketplace is the only viable solution now. We realise this is a disappointment for those who remember us saying we'd never do it back in Closed Beta and no one is more disappointed than us. But times have changed and PoE is a very different game than it was then. We feel this is the best solution. A lot of players have asked for it and we admit we were wrong to hold out for this long. This change will drastically reduce scamming incidents and should make trading a much more pleasant experience for the vast majority of players.

Or something like that.

The sad thing is I don't think it'd be even that easy to do. But right now it's looking a lot easier than the forum based trading pipe dream they've been blowing rings with for years.

And if I get proven wrong, and it becomes a reality, and it works...you won't find a happier whale than me, so it's not like I want to be right in this. If I had my way the whole game would be SSF and item drops balanced around that but I admit PoE would die in no time were that to happen, heh.

edit: Sorry, I didn't address your 'let's dumb the game down as much as possible' blather because it doesn't deserve an answer. Simplifying trade to something familiar is NOT going to make PoE 'as dumbed down as possible'. It'll still be for the most part one of the least newbie-friendly games out there, with obfuscated wording, hidden stats and a ridiculously narrow metagame that means PoE is either way too easy (follow the meta) or way too hard (don't follow the meta) but rarely balanced between (like most other, much 'dumber' games -- maybe some 'dumb' isn't so bad, hm?). If you can't see that, step back a bit and have a look at what everyone else is playing.

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Sickness wrote:

[same shit over and over again]