GGG's argument about AH/state of trade that is grinding my gears - 2018 edition

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Sickness wrote:

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Boem wrote:

So because in your eyes there is no player that is playing 100% efficiently, efficiency cannot be utilized as a scale to make distinctions between players.

No. Because no one is 100% efficient, everyone falls between 1% and 100% efficiency, and thus the destinction between efficient and inefficient is completely arbitrary.

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Boem wrote:

1) in it's current implementation for a "skilled"(=efficient) player, no.

What does that even mean? Would players not trade less if the ability to use sites like poe.trade was removed?

Yeah it's not like we have challenges/a tiered end-game and a ladder, or that GGG is incapable to deduce from statistical data in what "skill-group" a certain player is currently.

As for your secondary statement.

Then why don't they remove it? They can do that, tomorrow if they desired so.(shut down the api)

And it doesn't change anything within my statement, if trading was ordered differently tomorrow, then that just reshuffles the definition of "efficient" and players that have the competence or skill-set will still utilize the most efficient strategy.

But currently, with the tools available, the most efficient players will utilize trade to upgrade whenever they please. No single efficient player is going "damn i need to alt-tab for this upgrade, i'll rather go grind fellshrine for 3 days instead".

Peace,

-Boem-

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Boem wrote:

Yeah it's not like we have challenges/a tiered end-game and a ladder, or that GGG is incapable to deduce from statistical data in what "skill-group" a certain player is currently.

How do you determine if a player is efficient or not? How many challenges or what score on the leaderboard?
You don't think it's really a question of how efficient a player is rather than a binary state of efficient or not efficient?

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Boem wrote:

And it doesn't change anything within my statement, if trading was ordered differently tomorrow, then that just reshuffles the definition of "efficient" and players that have the competence or skill-set will still utilize the most efficient strategy.

It changes everything with your statement. That changes to the system reshuffles the definition of "efficient" is pretty much exactly what I have been arguing the entire thread. In this example the definition of "efficient" would include less reliance on trade. And improvements to the trading system would reshuffle the definitoon to include more reliance on trade.

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Boem wrote:

But currently, with the tools available, the most efficient players will utilize trade to upgrade whenever they please.

Argh. What a meaningless statement. All players will use trade to upgrade whenever they please.

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Boem wrote:

No single efficient player is going "damn i need to alt-tab for this upgrade, i'll rather go grind fellshrine for 3 days instead".

Now you are shifting between "efficient" and "most efficient".

"Efficient" players could certainly go "nah, I'll keep going with my current gear a little while longer and hope for some upgrades instead of alt-tab, search, contact seller, hope he is not afk and in the right league and still got the item", and the more steps you remove from that the more often it will please the efficent player to do the trade instead of deciding not to.


My hope is that you now will see what your argument should be; that alt-tabbing is such a small step to remove that it's worth it for the benefits.
Your current argument from denial is never going to work.

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Sickness wrote:

Argh. What a meaningless statement. All players will use trade to upgrade whenever they please.

How is it meaningless.

Trading is available for an efficient player. At any point in time, if the market can provide an upgrade for them it is the most efficient route possible to take.

I already established my parameters for this five pages ago. If the market can provide an upgrade, it is the most efficient option, if not, then crafting comes into play.

This occurs at high end min-maxing, niche item creation and early league progression since the market cannot provide for those instances.

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Sickness wrote:

Now you are shifting between "efficient" and "most efficient".

"Efficient" players could certainly go "nah, I'll keep going with my current gear a little while longer and hope for some upgrades instead of alt-tab, search, contact seller, hope he is not afk and in the right league and still got the item", and the more steps you remove from that the more often it will please the efficent player to do the trade instead of deciding not to.

Also for this, i established my parameters.

If the players power relative to content is falling below a reasonable threshold.
(pleasant game experience)

Nobody, currently in the game, is farming fellshrine for 3 days to find those life/resist items like we used to when forum trading was the method available to us.
Let's assume your reasoning and a player's power is below the average requirements of the zone, then there is discomfort. The solution to this discomfort is trading currently.
Or the decision to be inefficient and struggle.

The old PoE promoted struggle, the current version does the opposite. There is a justified reason for the disappointment of old-players.

GGG said one thing "we will make a hardcore game for hardcore players,by players for players" but they deliver a quite casual game in the long run devoid of struggle if you posses "game-knowledge/skill".

Peace,

-Boem-

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vio wrote:

i'm not the role model of a arpg player as i play intentionally inefficient (as f.e. i like loot tention and identifying loot).

when starting the game i played ssf for a long time and when they enabled forum trading i couldn't be bothered to open a shop myself. too much hassle and i occasionally exchanged currency with others in trade chat.

it's only when ggg introduced trade tabs that i discovered i suddenly had 150 of them and could conveniently sell stuff. i did start to trade, game changed alot although i never really got rich cause i'm not online all the time.

but i think there is a barrier for trading which still exists in alot of people's minds. that is additional to the barrier that is available stash which is needed to be able to offer items.

and you exactly prove my point. Back when forum shops were a thing it was a huge inconvenience and one would only use it if they really, really wanted an item

Now there's little reason not to trade and sell/buy shit, it's hilariously easy a bot written by a 12 year old can do it

GGG never tries to improve qol in trade = less reliance on trade=more people looting items=slower clear speed=more value to items=game more of an item driven game than it is a trash clear simulator with currency pickup

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grepman wrote:

GGG never tries to improve qol in trade = less reliance on trade=more people looting items=slower clear speed=more value to items=game more of an item driven game than it is a trash clear simulator with currency pickup

the sweet spot would be where it's slightly less convenient to find the desired item in the game itself rather than collecting currency and simply buy it.

the important question probably is: which strategy returns more players who are able to support the game.

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vio wrote:

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grepman wrote:

GGG never tries to improve qol in trade = less reliance on trade=more people looting items=slower clear speed=more value to items=game more of an item driven game than it is a trash clear simulator with currency pickup

the sweet spot would be where it's slightly less convenient to find the desired item in the game itself rather than collecting currency and simply buy it.

the important question probably is: which strategy returns more players who are able to support the game.

question is irrelevant, for if you follow the answer poe shouldn't have been made in the first place like all niche games. If you follow the answer it should've been an arcade brawler like d3

I wish i could live in this wonderland where finding items is only slighty worse than buying them.
It hurts a lot to read about amazing RNG of others while for me it suck and only way to upgrade equipment is to buy it. Since start of breach league i found two times item that could be worth to use by me, something to consider as replacment of my current gear. Yeah... with this ratio it would take me only 4,5 years to complete one build or about 3h of cancerous "interacting" with other players.

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Boem wrote:

How is it meaningless.

Because water is wet and players will choose to trade when they want to trade. No shit sherlock. The whole point I am making is that the trade system affects players willingness to trade. The more efficient and convenient the more often will players choose to trade.

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Boem wrote:

Also for this, i established my parameters.

If the players power relative to content is falling below a reasonable threshold.
(pleasant game experience)

Nobody, currently in the game, is farming fellshrine for 3 days to find those life/resist items like we used to when forum trading was the method available to us.
Let's assume your reasoning and a player's power is below the average requirements of the zone, then there is discomfort. The solution to this discomfort is trading currently.
Or the decision to be inefficient and struggle.

You are using use relative and subjective parameters to argue your absolute position.
There are no thesholds like that, it's all a matter of degree.

The following is true and your imaginary thresholds does not change that:
"Efficient" players could certainly go "nah, I'll keep going with my current gear a little while longer and hope for some upgrades instead of alt-tab, search, contact seller, hope he is not afk and in the right league and still got the item", and the more steps you remove from that the more often it will please the efficent player to do the trade instead of deciding not to.

Is it not time to accept that you can make your actual argument about players being shut out from trading without having to retort to this denial of very basic concepts?

They funny thing is that AH actually DOES exist in PoE... but only for certain players - the botters. I've seen a lot of automatic bots with automatic reply and automatic trade, especially when I'm trading orbs.

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Sickness wrote:

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Boem wrote:

How is it meaningless.

Because water is wet and players will choose to trade when they want to trade. No shit sherlock. The whole point I am making is that the trade system affects players willingness to trade. The more efficient and convenient the more often will players choose to trade.

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Boem wrote:

Also for this, i established my parameters.

If the players power relative to content is falling below a reasonable threshold.
(pleasant game experience)

Nobody, currently in the game, is farming fellshrine for 3 days to find those life/resist items like we used to when forum trading was the method available to us.
Let's assume your reasoning and a player's power is below the average requirements of the zone, then there is discomfort. The solution to this discomfort is trading currently.
Or the decision to be inefficient and struggle.

You are using use relative and subjective parameters to argue your absolute position.
There are no thesholds like that, it's all a matter of degree.

The following is true and your imaginary thresholds does not change that:
"Efficient" players could certainly go "nah, I'll keep going with my current gear a little while longer and hope for some upgrades instead of alt-tab, search, contact seller, hope he is not afk and in the right league and still got the item", and the more steps you remove from that the more often it will please the efficent player to do the trade instead of deciding not to.

Is it not time to accept that you can make your actual argument about players being shut out from trading without having to retort to this denial of very basic concepts?

Your position is that a player who trades 10/10 times now to be efficient will start trading 11/10 times when you implement trade in the game engine itself.

There is no evidence for this. Why would a player trade more if he can sufficiently upgrade already to beat all content within the current system.
There was an increase in trading compared to the old PoE because there was struggle then to upgrade gear.
There is no struggle now, it simply is not known to a certain part of the community.

And how is a player efficient if he starts grinding out a zone in the hopes of an upgrade or starts crafting when he can spend 5 minutes on PoE trade and just "get on" with the game.

Your saying that players should farm content more and craft more and that this is the stance of GGG, therefore they want trade to be inefficient.

Reality shows a different story.
Reality shows they made the game faster and easier, accommodated easier trading and lowered the skill ceiling.

They can state that they want trading to be inefficient, but then they simply have to look at their
game-progression to realize they moved away from that stance over time. Even if it was their original design and goal.

Peace,

-Boem-