Honestly fuck these loot boxes.

"

sainthazard wrote:

Did you find yourself grinding anything at all in order to get those achievments? Maps, for example, to complete encounters and kill liches? If so, you're in a Skinner Box, and your randomized return, your food pellet, is those challenges behind multiple layers of RNG. The very next Abyss, for example, could be the one Ulaman is hiding in. Your very next lich kill, for example, could be the one that drops a two-socket unique.

If not, then you're still in a Skinner Box, but you've found a way to game the system to get what you want with minimal grinding. Maybe you waited until someone else got their food pellet and then offered them some money if they'd share it with you.

Either way, you still want your food pellet, and you're still willing to dump a lot of time into pressing a button to get it.

Edit: FYI, my explanation of Skinner Boxes and how we're all in one isn't meant to pass judgment on any person who's willing to press that stupid button for hours and days on end. I'm right there with you guys, grinding the good grind. I'm just as much a victim of the box as you are. And that's okay.

I’m going to have to yes and no you on this one. You are almost completely right, but let me explain why I don’t 100% agree.

If I start a league with the intent of completing 40 challenges from day 1, I make a lab runner right off and grind 100 lab completions. While you are going to say that each completion is a button push, I will propose that each completion is a calculated step towards a goal. The rewards are going to reliably be worth something, which can then be sold for chaos and said chaos used to buy achievements. This seems a whole lot more like doing the work and getting a payout than something like aimlessly farming maps and listening for exalts to drop.
I think game knowledge, which includes knowing what drops where and what it’s worth, can almost reduce the big gamble into a somewhat reliable grind. The occasional high value drop is nice, but it doesn’t get 100 labs done much faster or slower.

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IIPheXII wrote:

Looks like if you are a VIP member you get to put multiple f**** in a thread and not get modded.

Language is often something that is best judged on a case-by-case basis.

If she used that language directed at another player then I imagine there would have been consequences, but it was directed towards lootboxes - inanimate objects which aren't likely to feel hurt. Sure, it's profanity - but the Terms of Use say you should be 16+ to create an account.

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IIPheXII wrote:

Looks like a good community. But yeah, loot boxes are kinda retarded

You've a problem with offensive language but use the word "retarded" pejoratively?

Really?

Hopefully they will be made illegal soon. Children gambling with real money is very wrong and GGG should feel bad they take advantage of underage people. It is my only real big gripe with GGG.
"
Completed 32 ChallengesOrbitalx wrote:
I truly hope they do ban in game gambling like these mystery boxes. There is too much potential for misleading people. GGG is flat out misleading people with their mystery boxes.

"The possible outcomes from your mystery box range in value from 30 points all the way up to 320 points! "

This is true but only for the first box. If you get a duplicate it is worth 0 points to you. You should change the wording. It should say, "The possible outcomes from your mystery box range in value from 30 points all the way up to 320 points on your first box. After that it ranges from 0 points all the way up to 320 points."

Also, each box does not average 110 points. The first box averages 110 points (if you say so). After the first box each additional box will average less and less points the more you buy.

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Completed 40 ChallengesGravytrader wrote:
Rough math would have the average value of the first box you purchase at 110 points. As you buy more the average value decreases assuming you value duplicates as zero.

On average, box value would be (using more rough math):
1st box: 110 points
5th box: 101 points
10th box: 91 points
15th box: 81 points
20th box: 73 points
30th box: 59 points
40th box: 47 points
50th box: 38 points
60th box: 31 points
61st box: 29.92 points



Also, this is gambling. You should warn people about gambling and especially be careful to not let children gamble. I love you guys but honestly these boxes are super unethical. You can actually pay for a chance to get something and get nothing of value in return. Pay 3 dollars and get 0 dollars. Gambling in video games is so shady. Hopefully you guys stop this nonsense otherwise you are no better than other shady video game scammers.

"

Orbitalx wrote:

Hopefully they will be made illegal soon. Children gambling with real money is very wrong and GGG should feel bad they take advantage of underage people. It is my only real big gripe with GGG.

Do you not read threads before you post in them?

It's been mentioned several times that PoE's terms of service state you must be at least 16 years old to play.

Not to mention you have to use an electronic form of payment to get mtx points, which are generally unavailable to children anyway.

It's not marketed to kids. It doesn't pander to kids. And it certainly doesn't encourage kids to gamble.

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sainthazard wrote:

"

Orbitalx wrote:

Hopefully they will be made illegal soon. Children gambling with real money is very wrong and GGG should feel bad they take advantage of underage people. It is my only real big gripe with GGG.

Do you not read threads before you post in them?

It's been mentioned several times that PoE's terms of service state you must be at least 16 years old to play.

Not to mention you have to use an electronic form of payment to get mtx points, which are generally unavailable to children anyway.

It's not marketed to kids. It doesn't pander to kids. And it certainly doesn't encourage kids to gamble.

16 year olds are kids and are not old enough to gamble. They shouldn't be allowed to buy gambling boxes. If they want to sell gambling boxes they should change the TOS age to be appropriate.

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Sarno wrote:

"

adghar wrote:

Casinos are, for some reason, rather universally tolerated. (At least, here in the US.)

I don’t mind those. :)

Casinos are fine because they are regulated by the state. You have to have specific chances of winning for the games you play to be legal. Also, you need to be of proper age to gamble. All of these laws and regulations are made to protect the consumers. Right now these do not exist for loot crates and game developers are exploiting that. GGG sort of tries to do fairly but it is still shady the way they do it and they still sell them to underage people.

GGG is better than most but still misleading and the boxes are gambling. Eventually they will be made illegal or regulated by countries but it just hasn't happened yet.

I just don't feel GGG even needs to sell these to make money but maybe they do. I don't know how much of their revenue comes from gambling boxes compared to regular sales.

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sainthazard wrote:

That said, roleplaying games in general and MMOs and ARPGs in particular are a digital form of what is called a Skinner Box. B.F. Skinner, the behaviorist, who I've studied in the context of linguistics professionally but only in the context of psychology in passing, as I said before, essentially discovered that when pigeons were caged in a box with a button that, when pressed, dispensed a food pellet, the pigeons would quickly learn that a button press equated to a food pellet and would press the button when hungry enough times to sate their hunger. However, when the button press was altered to only sometimes result in the release of a food pellet, the pigeons began to obsessively press the button, even when not hungry, resulting in piles of uneaten food pellets. The conclusion was that randomness and uncertainty prompted the pigeon to press the food pellet far more often than was necessary because now there was a sense of reward attached to receiving a food pellet. It wasn't just sustenance - it was a victory.

In my opinion. the bird is stock piling pellets. The bird is uncertain about the availability of the food. Therefore, the bird stock piles as much as it can "just in case".

When the food is consistent, the bird does not need to stock pile. The bird assumes the food will be there indefinitely.

It's a small thing. However, I think it is more a case of "uncertainty and hunger" than a "sense of reward".

Desirable, scarce, items tend to be stock piled. Desirable, abundant, items tend to be consumed on whim. Pretty standard economics actually.

Personally, this is where I become annoyed at GGG. GGG intentionally alters the supply rate in order to profit. "Why sell 1 fire wings if you can sell multiple loot boxes instead?" - every video game creator.

A more humane method to loot boxes would be to provide an alternate purchase method as well. Everything in the loot boxes should be individually purchasable outside of the loot boxes. Thereby, the gamble becomes "save a little money or spend a little extra". When exclusivity is added to a loot box, the gamble becomes "spend unknown amounts of money for a chance at something you want."

"

Orbitalx wrote:

Hopefully they will be made illegal soon. Children gambling with real money is very wrong and GGG should feel bad they take advantage of underage people. It is my only real big gripe with GGG.

Gambling? I never understood this.

You know you're going to lose 100% of your money. That isn't gambling. Calling it gambling seems delusional

Also interesting considering you have to be 18 to have a credit card (that your parents don't know about), 18 to open a bank account (without your parents), and 18 to open a Paypal, and 18 to basically have access to funds online. If not, that money probably came from your parents, or a gift card. Your parents are responsible for your spending, not GGG. If it's a gift card, spend it on whatever you want

It involves cash and what you get back for that cash is driven by RNG, with more desirable results being rarer. It's most definitely a form of gambling:

"Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods."

While the goods might be immaterial they are, in context, the 'prize'.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gacha_game

All else aside, loot boxes are a form of gacha, and gacha so close to gambling that forms of it have been illegalised even in Japan. This is just a fact.

People defending loot boxes of all things. And yes I use the term loot box, since it's the established one for this phenomenon.