Honestly fuck these loot boxes.

I like lootboxes more and more every time I see threads like this popping up.

"

DreadLordAvatar wrote:

Loot boxes are awesome. I bought 1 so far, will buy more when I’m drunk. I don’t mind duplicates, I put em on mules.

I laughed for about a minute. Then chuckled for a while more.

It's funny because it's true.

Sarno, I know I'm a bit late to the argument but if you don't mind I'd like to address a few points you've made.

"

Sarno wrote:

Video game RNG boxes are gambling in my eyes and I view them not being legally considered such a BS technicality. So in my eyes the entire conversation revolves around gambling.

I am with you so far. Let us call something what it is: loot boxes are gambling.

"

Sarno wrote:

So, what’ll we do? Outlaw gambling? Well, there are people out there who are allergic to water. It obviously isn’t feasible to render illegal everything which even a single individual has a problem with. I do believe that gambling can be a fun thing people do in moderation, only using disposable income they can afford to lose, and I see no reason to needlessly deprive them of that.

Thus I see a need to find a compromise. Where I live, there are stringent laws restricting the advertising of cigarettes. You can go out and buy a pack if you like - no questions asked - but it’s seen as not being in the public interest to have ads glorifying smoking.

We're absolutely still on the same page. Don't penalize those who aren't causing harm to others or themselves because what they're doing has been used to cause harm in situations that are outside of the average.

"

Sarno wrote:

But I do think gambling has no place in games. They’re marketed towards children, their developers aren’t made as accountable as companies properly recognised as providing gambling services, and it means those trying to fight an addiction have to check whether the game they want to play is “safe” before they buy it. And it’s not like lootboxes have a reputation for improving games...

But this is where we diverge and what I want to address specifically, in two ways.

First, as has already been said, video games are absolutely age-regulated and laws are in place to protect children from games that are outside of what is appropriate for them. Organizations exist with this exact purpose. In North America, it's the ESRB. In NZ, it's the OFLC. The PoE ToS states the age restriction for the game is 16+. If it was retailed in the United States, you can bet it would have an M rating, just based on the nudity and violence alone. The fact that my country has a very puritan view of nudity in media notwithstanding to this argument, of course. So your argument that this game and its loot boxes is or could be marketed towards children is bordering on absurd.

Second, your argument that gambling has no place in games. This is patently wrong, and I will attempt to explain why. First, I am not a psychologist, so the principles I am going to outline here are not something I have studied academically, merely out of non-academic interest. Forgive me if I botch something and please correct me if I do.

That said, roleplaying games in general and MMOs and ARPGs in particular are a digital form of what is called a Skinner Box. B.F. Skinner, the behaviorist, who I've studied in the context of linguistics professionally but only in the context of psychology in passing, as I said before, essentially discovered that when pigeons were caged in a box with a button that, when pressed, dispensed a food pellet, the pigeons would quickly learn that a button press equated to a food pellet and would press the button when hungry enough times to sate their hunger. However, when the button press was altered to only sometimes result in the release of a food pellet, the pigeons began to obsessively press the button, even when not hungry, resulting in piles of uneaten food pellets. The conclusion was that randomness and uncertainty prompted the pigeon to press the food pellet far more often than was necessary because now there was a sense of reward attached to receiving a food pellet. It wasn't just sustenance - it was a victory.

Now at the time this principle was applied not to animals nor to video games (which did not exist yet) but rather to gambling - specifically, to slot machines. The idea behind a slot machine is elegantly simple and yet incredibly devious. An input is given (usually a coin of some denomination, ranging in the US from a penny to a quarter), a lever is pulled, and depending on the odds of a payout, anywhere from an equal amount of currency to that which is put in to a massive jackpot many times the input could be rendered, but far more often, the player got nothing at all in return.

Now this is what makes slot machines similar to a Skinner Box, but not what makes them so devious - the psychological principle behind them does this. What keeps a person sitting at slots for hours at a time is the nagging thought that if they walk away now, the very next pull could be the one that results in a jackpot. What if someone sits down at the same machine, pulls the lever, and wins a hundred dollars?

This is also where we make our cross over into video games. Path of Exile absolutely included. Early MMOs made this connection, later MMOs like World of Warcraft and ARPGs like Diablo 2 perfected it, and now Path of Exile has used it to essentially its full effect. Instead of putting in money, someone puts in the fraction of a second it takes to kill a monster. Combined, the second or two it takes to destroy a pack. Over several minutes, a map. Over many hours, a mapping session. Time is the currency we put in, and as any economist will tell you, time is money. Opportunity cost is what you could be using your resources to be doing, but are not. So what's the reward? Rare items. In-game currency.

We play Path of Exile for hours on end because that very next pack of monsters could drop an exalted orb or a Belly. Just like we play the slots for hours on end because that very next pull of the lever could result in a $150 payout. And meanwhile, we've spent hours of our time that we could be spending another way. We could be mowing the lawn, or working a second job, or spending time with loved ones, or just sitting and tugging on our meat, whatever - the point is, we invest time. Just like that person sitting at the slot machine could be spending their time and money on something other than chasing that payout. And at the end of the day, that person is going to spend far more money than they could ever make on the slots, because humans are not naturally good at statistics and probability... but casino owners are. That's why the house always wins. That's why GGG always wins.

So in essence, all ARPGs and MMORPGs are gambling. At their very core. We are nothing more than pigeons mindlessly pecking at a button even though we're not hungry. Yes, it's more complicated than that in real life, I know. But that's the essence of it.

So to summarize, your assertion that gambling does not belong in video games is inherently fallacious because video games like PoE are at their very core gambling.

Does that make sense?

I don’t know if it’s a Skinner Box for everyone. I got my 36 achievements and I’m out. I could be farming HoGM for a month more knowing that them mirrors are just waiting for me if I were in a Skinner Box. I did the work to get what I wanted just like the league before and the league before. If I play more, it will be because I want the totem, not to roll 1k exalts into the dumpster.

Did you find yourself grinding anything at all in order to get those achievments? Maps, for example, to complete encounters and kill liches? If so, you're in a Skinner Box, and your randomized return, your food pellet, is those challenges behind multiple layers of RNG. The very next Abyss, for example, could be the one Ulaman is hiding in. Your very next lich kill, for example, could be the one that drops a two-socket unique.

If not, then you're still in a Skinner Box, but you've found a way to game the system to get what you want with minimal grinding. Maybe you waited until someone else got their food pellet and then offered them some money if they'd share it with you.

Either way, you still want your food pellet, and you're still willing to dump a lot of time into pressing a button to get it.

Edit: FYI, my explanation of Skinner Boxes and how we're all in one isn't meant to pass judgment on any person who's willing to press that stupid button for hours and days on end. I'm right there with you guys, grinding the good grind. I'm just as much a victim of the box as you are. And that's okay.

stop gambling

Washington State Gambling Commission to consider new bill on loot box controversy
http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/01/25/washington-state-gambling-commission-to-consider-new-bill-on-loot-box-controversy

Quite an interesting question: if the boxes are banned in one country and allowed in another, whether you'd feel bereft or protected while living in a first country and having no legal access to these boxes?

Looks like if you are a VIP member you get to put multiple f**** in a thread and not get modded. Looks like a good community. But yeah, loot boxes are kinda retarded specially in this game since you get a lot of dupes. I haven't spent cash on any in this game in them and i'm just happy with the MTX i bought.

"

IIPheXII wrote:

Looks like if you are a VIP member you get to put multiple f**** in a thread and not get modded. Looks like a good community. But yeah, loot boxes are kinda retarded specially in this game since you get a lot of dupes. I haven't spent cash on any in this game in them and i'm just happy with the MTX i bought.

Why do some of you think cussing is like a violation of the ToS? Cause it's not. I've done the whole cussing persona thing quite a bit ago hell if it was I would of been banned long ago what's wrong with some of you lol