Honestly fuck these loot boxes.

"

sainthazard wrote:

First, as has already been said, video games are absolutely age-regulated and laws are in place to protect children from games that are outside of what is appropriate for them. Organizations exist with this exact purpose. In North America, it's the ESRB. In NZ, it's the OFLC. The PoE ToS states the age restriction for the game is 16+. If it was retailed in the United States, you can bet it would have an M rating, just based on the nudity and violence alone. The fact that my country has a very puritan view of nudity in media notwithstanding to this argument, of course. So your argument that this game and its loot boxes is or could be marketed towards children is bordering on absurd.

You’re moving the goalposts. Read your own post for the quote of mine - I did not limit my statement to "this game". I said "games". Path of Exile is far from being the only game to feature lootboxes.

The only age rating I am aware of for Path of Exile is 16+.

EA’s Battlefront II was released with lootboxes and PEGI awarded it a 16+ age rating. I believe in the United States it received a Teen rating from the ESRB, and my understanding is that this signifies a game is appropriate for children aged 13+. Is that correct?

Overwatch has lootboxes. PEGI handed it a 12+ age rating. ESRB gave it a Teen rating.

Forza 7 has lootboxes. PEGI applied a 3+ rating. The ESRB chose E for Everyone.

At the risk of "bordering on absurd", I reiterate my claim: they’re marketed towards children.

"

sainthazard wrote:

We play Path of Exile for hours on end because that very next pack of monsters could drop an exalted orb or a Belly.

Do "we" indeed?

I play the game for the satisfaction of beginning with nothing in a fresh League, accumulating currency, playing a build I’ve never experienced before, and piece by piece watching the character become a force to be reckoned with. I’ve never reached level 100 - the furthest I’ve gone is level 92. I tend to do mapping for a short while, primarily focusing on Atlas progression and trying different endgame content (Uber Atziri, etc.) before losing interest.

Once my character is "finished" I struggle to maintain invested in them. This League I played a Volatile Dead Inqusitor - I trust that my paltry 14 completed challenges demonstrate that I haven’t played him much. With most builds I find mapping tedious. The gameplay and challenge might keep me playing for longer, but I’m a pessimist who doesn’t expect good drops. :)

"

sainthazard wrote:

So in essence, all ARPGs and MMORPGs are gambling. At their very core.

If you want to argue that games have addictive properties then you wouldn’t be the first, and it continues to be investigated. Certainly I’d be inclined to agree that they can.

However you’re conflating gambling with addiction. The two aren’t synonymous.

I googled it;


Playing a video game is not "for money", nor is it a "risky action".

"Any game of chance that involves anything of monetary value is gambling."
—https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_of_chance

Killing enemies in an ARPG does not constitute something of monetary value.

"

sainthazard wrote:

Does that make sense?

Which bit? The part where you subtly misrepresented something I had said, the part where you accused me of "bordering on absurdity" for suggesting games such as Overwatch are marketed towards kids, or when you tried to redefine a word?

"

Orbitalx wrote:

The government should not remove gambling for you unless you are under 21 years old. Once you are 21 you should be able to gamble but you should have a fair chance at winning and these odds need to be regulated. They are not right now. As you can see above, even GGG's odds are not really right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequences


I think people are failing to see what will come of all this.


Let's say MTX and lootboxes get classified as gambling under US law, and they create some bureaucracy to oversee gambling in video games or expand on virtual gambling organization already in effect. What's going to happen most likely is any game featuring lootboxes is going to be forced to carry an adult only rating.

Now we can look at games like total war, that go to amazing lengths to make sure their game is rated T and adding in certain things via DLC. So it's extremely obvious that a AO/21+ rating is very bad for business.

GGG is already rated 18+ looking at their xbox release, but who knows what having to bump it to 21+ would mean for sales. I don't think it would be positive. I could definetely see them removing loot boxes (for everyone) to keep the M rating.


And this is just one avenue, what if GGG hikes prices up on MTX in general to make up for it? What if...

"

Orbitalx wrote:

The government should not remove gambling for you unless you are under 21 years old. Once you are 21 you should be able to gamble but you should have a fair chance at winning and these odds need to be regulated. They are not right now. As you can see above, even GGG's odds are not really right.

Wow - such a nice little Geocentric viewpoint that relates to where you live but not the rest of the world...

Here's a handy little hint for you.

Most of Europe - legal drinking and gambling age is 18 (some states of Germany its 21, but Belgium I believe 16 year olds can buy lotto tickets)

NZ - legal gambling and drinking age is, surprisingly 18

Australia - Yup, you guessed it, 18

America - Nope, You cant drink or gamble cause your too irresponsible, but hey - you can go shoot some semi automatic weapons, that's fine... right?

Loot boxes are gambling, those who purchase them are making a decision - a 'what if' choice. I *might* get that expensive armour, or I *might* luck out and get some stupid tile for my hideout. Or, get this, you can just spend the points you'd spend on boxes and buy the damn MTX instead, or just buy character or stash upgrades. Either way your supporting a game your playing.

And one last point - Math is a thing, please learn it.

Your choice, choose wisely.

Matt.

"

essemoni wrote:

Wow - such a nice little Geocentric viewpoint that relates to where you live but not the rest of the world...

Here's a handy little hint for you.

Most of Europe - legal drinking and gambling age is 18 (some states of Germany its 21, but Belgium I believe 16 year olds can buy lotto tickets)

NZ - legal gambling and drinking age is, surprisingly 18

Australia - Yup, you guessed it, 18

America - Nope, You cant drink or gamble cause your too irresponsible, but hey - you can go shoot some semi automatic weapons, that's fine... right?

Loot boxes are gambling, those who purchase them are making a decision - a 'what if' choice. I *might* get that expensive armour, or I *might* luck out and get some stupid tile for my hideout. Or, get this, you can just spend the points you'd spend on boxes and buy the damn MTX instead, or just buy character or stash upgrades. Either way your supporting a game your playing.

And one last point - Math is a thing, please learn it.

Your choice, choose wisely.

Matt.

You can shoot fully automatic weapons at any age here, laws pertain to ownership and where you can carry. For instance I got my hunter saftey cert at 7 years old which let me carry a firearm on private/public hunting land of course I couldn't actually own a gun then. A better analogy is the fact you can be 18 and join the military, but still have to wait 3 years to smoke/gamble. In fact i think you can join even younger under certain circumstances.

Every communist/facist/nazi country takes the guns away because you can't go full authoritarian without a de-armed populace. And inb4 what good are you guns against the military. Look at any modern day occupation force. How is it going in the middle east? How did it go in Vietnam? Remember when the USSR invaded Afghanistan (sending million dollars jets to become fodder for thousand dollar stinger missiles you run out of money quick)? And remember the military is just a label, it's made up of people it's not a immoral amalgamation of faceless zombies that would do something to their own people.


Sorry but the American in me can't let that line slide.

"

Miská wrote:

Where exactly do they misrepresent the chance to get a certain item?

I already said this multiple times but here it is again.



GGG says
"The possible outcomes from your mystery box range in value from 30 points all the way up to 320 points! "

This is true but only for the first box. If you get a duplicate it is worth 0 points to you. You should change the wording. It should say, "The possible outcomes from your mystery box range in value from 30 points all the way up to 320 points on your first box. After that it ranges from 0 points all the way up to 320 points."

Also, each box does not average 110 points. The first box averages 110 points (if you say so). After the first box each additional box will average less and less points the more you buy.

"
Completed 40 ChallengesGravytrader wrote:
Rough math would have the average value of the first box you purchase at 110 points. As you buy more the average value decreases assuming you value duplicates as zero.

On average, box value would be (using more rough math):
1st box: 110 points
5th box: 101 points
10th box: 91 points
15th box: 81 points
20th box: 73 points
30th box: 59 points
40th box: 47 points
50th box: 38 points
60th box: 31 points
61st box: 29.92 points

As you can see, the more boxes you buy the less each box is worth.

"

essemoni wrote:

"

Orbitalx wrote:

The government should not remove gambling for you unless you are under 21 years old. Once you are 21 you should be able to gamble but you should have a fair chance at winning and these odds need to be regulated. They are not right now. As you can see above, even GGG's odds are not really right.

Wow - such a nice little Geocentric viewpoint that relates to where you live but not the rest of the world...

Here's a handy little hint for you.

Most of Europe - legal drinking and gambling age is 18 (some states of Germany its 21, but Belgium I believe 16 year olds can buy lotto tickets)

NZ - legal gambling and drinking age is, surprisingly 18

Australia - Yup, you guessed it, 18

America - Nope, You cant drink or gamble cause your too irresponsible, but hey - you can go shoot some semi automatic weapons, that's fine... right?

Loot boxes are gambling, those who purchase them are making a decision - a 'what if' choice. I *might* get that expensive armour, or I *might* luck out and get some stupid tile for my hideout. Or, get this, you can just spend the points you'd spend on boxes and buy the damn MTX instead, or just buy character or stash upgrades. Either way your supporting a game your playing.

And one last point - Math is a thing, please learn it.

Your choice, choose wisely.

Matt.

See above post why even GGG's system is misleading. My point is that gambling boxes need to be regulated so they are fair to the consumer. Right now most are not. A lot of them advertise to children and allow children to gamble. It is not right. It is unethical. If it legal to gamble at 18 in your county, that is fine. You shouldn't be able to play this game until you are 18 if they keep gambling boxes in the game. This also means that your age needs to be properly verified before you can buy the game. It is not right now. Again, if gambling boxes weren't in the game it wouldn't matter as much about your age to play the game. But since they are in the game, your age does matter a lot. So that underage people are not gambling.

Loot boxes are gambling plain and simple. The only reason they are not regulated as gambling is because the government has not declared them as gambling yet. Once they do, everyone selling these gambling boxes will have to change the way they do business and will no longer easily be able to sell gambling boxes to people underage. Hopefully. Also hopefully they will be regulated so that your chances of winning are clearer.

Gotta say this is the best 2018 poe thread so far :) Keep it alive!

Throwing money and geting 0 value is dissapointing. Covering that with "you have chance" to get what you want doesnt make it any better.

Any gambling anywhere will always give you more value than gambling in lootboxes.
In any gambling you win money or get 0 value. In a Blackjack you get so much value compared to lootboxes its ridicilous.
Gambling is illegal because you can be rich and if you are not 21 you dont pay taxes :D And because of that you are not allowed to gamble.

So gamble is because you are too young to pay taxes.
In here you never win money just cosmetics. So its always a loss. And you can get 5 footprints in a row. Or 2 helmets :)

"

Orbitalx wrote:

"

Miská wrote:

Where exactly do they misrepresent the chance to get a certain item?

I already said this multiple times but here it is again.



GGG says
"The possible outcomes from your mystery box range in value from 30 points all the way up to 320 points! "

This is true but only for the first box. If you get a duplicate it is worth 0 points to you.....

Umm.. Who says? I could happily get 6 wing sets and put one on each of my many characters. Your assumption is incorrect.

Sorry, but math is a thing.

Matt.

I am not a gambler, but I think in Germany, there is regulation in Casinos that there is max amount you can spend (lose) in a day or time.

I am not a fan of regulation, but I do understamd why regulation are need. gambling addiction destroy family, cause people to commit crimes & worst. I see regulation for gambling control as a less evil to the consequences of lack of it.

Lootboxes or any kind of system that capitalise on gambling addiction need to be regulated.

"

essemoni wrote:

"

Orbitalx wrote:

"

Miská wrote:

Where exactly do they misrepresent the chance to get a certain item?

I already said this multiple times but here it is again.



GGG says
"The possible outcomes from your mystery box range in value from 30 points all the way up to 320 points! "

This is true but only for the first box. If you get a duplicate it is worth 0 points to you.....

Umm.. Who says? I could happily get 6 wing sets and put one on each of my many characters. Your assumption is incorrect.

Sorry, but math is a thing.

Matt.

Sure I guess technically you could put them on multiple characters. I think the vast majority of players do not do that since you can just swap micros so easily now. Glad it works for you. Most people do not see a use for duplicates however.

You do agree that most people do not see a use for duplicates though right?