Gain % of Maximum Mana as Extra Maximum Energy Shield mods are calculated differently

Difference in calculation between new mod on Watcher's Eye and e.g. Sanctuary of Thought:

Wording on Watcher's Eye:
Gain 14% of Maximum Mana as Extra Maximum Energy Shield while affected by Clarity

Wording on Sanctuary of Thought (Hierophant Keystone):
Gain 30% of Maximum Mana as Extra Maximum Energy Shield

The wording is exactly the same (apart from the "while affected by Clarity" dependency), but the seem to be calculated differently.
According to OpenArl (for Path of Building) the Watcher's Eye mod uses the same calculation as e.g. Hierophant node.
Ingame, I get a different value than Path of Building!



Issue for PoB: https://github.com/Openarl/PathOfBuilding/issues/759
Comment History:

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daish0 wrote:

The mod appears blue and seems to be supported (works when Clarity is switched on and off), although calculated flat ES value is wrong and doesn't appear in the "Calcs" tab as Base in the "Energy Shield" box.

For example, my character has 1,381 total Mana.
I have a Watcher's Eye with 14% Mana gained as ES.

Without the Mod I have 6,638 ES and when adding 193 flat ES (1381 x 0,14) I get exactly 7,500 total ES (which is correctly done in game), in Path of Building though I get 7,338 ES for whatever reason.

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Openarl wrote:

As far as I can tell the modifier appears to be working correctly; I will need a pastebin link of the build, or a character to import.

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daish0 wrote:

Hi,

here's my PasteBin: https://pastebin.com/vebApWEU

I added the mods of Watcher's Eye to my Quicksilver Flask in Flask Slot 5, as I had to fill one passive Tree Jewel slot with the Jewels from the unique Stygian Belt.

Just add the ! exclamation mark before the flat ES roll on the Quicksilver and remove the one before the Mana as ES mod to enable it.

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Openarl wrote:

Well, I'm a little confused now...

The modifier on Watcher's Eye is worded exactly like a conversion (and the program automatically detects and handles it as such), and it should therefore follow the standard conversion calculation process.

That process works quite differently from the calculation that you came up with (1381 x 0.14); what should actually occur is that the game takes 14% of your base Mana, then applies all modifiers to Mana and Energy Shield simultaneously. And that is how the program is handling it, and it is how other similar stats work (e.g on Hierophant's Sanctuary of Thought).

However, the fact that your calculation matches the in-game result clearly demonstrates that this modifier is not functioning as a conversion. But given its wording it absolutely should be, and so I believe that it is actually the game's handling of this modifier that is incorrect, not PoB's.

I would suggest raising this issue with GGG; I can't easily create a workaround to simulate the game's behaviour in this case, so either the game's handling of the modifier needs to be fixed, or they need to change the wording so that it doesn't imply conversion.

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daish0 wrote:

Hi,

I just checked a random guy that play's Hierophant with this Node you mentioned and Mana/ES values of Path of Building and Ingame seem to be correct. So there is a different between this Node calculation and the one from Watcher's Eye.

Will open a thread in the official Forum about it.

Is there a calculation bug ingame with the new Watcher's Eye, or is it calculated wrong for all the other occurrences of that mod, or are there differences we didn't see yet?



To my limited knowledge The Watcher's Eye works correctly and Hierophant node does not - but I could be wrong!?

When I get the maximum Mana (after all modifiers applied) and add that as flat ES, I get correct values for Watcher's Eye mod but not Hierophant! (or are values on Hierophant lower, maybe because Int doesn't "double-dip" on this or similar stuff, then Watcher's Eye is calculated in a wrong way)

Was there ever any official word by GGG on this?

This has been brought up in the past. Basically Hierophant's Sanctuary of Thought works like this:

Additional Energy Shield = Base Mana * 0.30 * (1 + % increased maximum Mana + % increased maximum Energy Shield)

whereas Guardian's Radiant Faith and the current Watcher's Eye work like this:

Additional Energy Shield = Base Mana * 0.15 * (1 + % increased maximum Mana) * (1 + % increased maximum Energy Shield)

Note that for Radiant Faith it's not base mana but reserved mana, and we're assuming 15% for Watcher's Eye (instead of the max roll 18%) but you get the idea.

The difference between the two formula is that in the former, since it acts like a conversion, the % increased mana and % increased ES gets added together, whereas in the later they are multiplied together.

It is no wonder that the later formula is superior. I personally think that Hierophant's Sanctuary of Thought should be changed (a buff) instead of changing Watcher's Eye (a nerf). Hierophant is already a rather weak ascendency, there's no point it has to suffer this shitty ES gain (compared to Guardian, Trickster, etc.)

Watcher's Eye uses the same wording as Hierophant and not Guardian, so it should be using the proper conversion calculation and provide the lower ES value. Maybe it's a limitation from the effect being conditional on being affected by an aura that comes and goes, but then it should use the Guardian wording in my opinion.

Has GGG responded officially to this concern yet?

I am also curious.

I become used to that if you want something to get done, you have to post it on reddit like me

https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/7n246p/is_this_why_energy_shield_is_nerfed_ll_rf/

I would also appreciate some confirmation if it's bug or not. I am not good at math, so i trust PoE to be better at math than I am, or better than the PoB dev guy who actually seem to have different calculation than the game does (it's still Op, but not completely broken)

well I was wondering why is it so crazy expensive. Good to know. Will be cheaper as soon as they fix it.

I wanna buy one but I also don't because I bought the VD enchant a few days before they "bug" fixed it. Would be nice to know if there were to be a "bug" fix or if the jewel is giving the values "intended".

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jagthehobo wrote:

I wanna buy one but I also don't because I bought the VD enchant a few days before they "bug" fixed it. Would be nice to know if there were to be a "bug" fix or if the jewel is giving the values "intended".

well there is certainly a bug because two same worded mods work differently so its either bad wording or bad function of the mod.

We will see but I dont think they intended to introduce such OP modifier.

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Ludvator wrote:

well I was wondering why is it so crazy expensive. Good to know. Will be cheaper as soon as they fix it.

Its crazy expensive because idiots on reddit decided that its worth same or more as HH and spammed it everywhere in that thread. I bought first one in ASC for about 15ex(lucky there) and wouldnt pay over 50ex for it. Ziz's stack bought theirs for 80ex ON HARDCORE iirc. Look on 2 jewels listed for 160 and 170ex in softcore, they are there for 3 days and they are gonna be there for more than a week at this rate of price lowering. The chance to get this jewel is one in 10.000 elder kills if we assume drops are not weighted and it drops every 4 kills, however it is only really would used for RF characters who are not exactly famous for their wealth generation in any possible regard and its only real use is meme es value since proper RF builds already steamroll all the content without it. Its not even close compared to what HH or mirrored weapons do to the builds, more of a show off look what stats i got now jewel.