VP+Reflect

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Damac0101 wrote:

I'm the one who wants all reflect rares be redesigned into racecourse minotaur timed 100% reflect.

So that everyone who is not 100% reflect immune oneshots themselves on them? Or such that they activate after a while such that you can ignore them completely because they are dead before they start reflecting?

The reflect aura has to be either on or off on the start when the monster activates. Both options seem very dumb.

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Char1983 wrote:

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Damac0101 wrote:

I'm the one who wants all reflect rares be redesigned into racecourse minotaur timed 100% reflect.

So that everyone who is not 100% reflect immune oneshots themselves on them? Or such that they activate after a while such that you can ignore them completely because they are dead before they start reflecting?

The reflect aura has to be either on or off on the start when the monster activates. Both options seem very dumb.

maybe not oneshot, maybe GGG need to add many visual auras and mechanics(like slow,jail, step by step 100% reflect) to balance it correctly, but I would like to see some mechanics which slows down a little those stupid parties who faceroll any content. There is no way I can enjoy such easy gameplay.

It is not a big deal to add sybil/passives to solve any problems with reflect nowadays.

Instant log off(or game design around it) and lack of interesting control mob mechanics - this is two big offenders to my daily game enjoyment.

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Damac0101 wrote:

maybe not oneshot, maybe GGG need to add many visual auras and mechanics(like slow,jail, step by step 100% reflect) to balance it correctly, but I would like to see some mechanics which slows down a little those stupid parties who faceroll any content. There is no way I can enjoy such easy gameplay.

Look, for most people, if they play the Racecourse map, they never see the reflect aura because the boss is dead before he can cast it. Same would happen to your reflect idea. The idea is just intrinsically flawed.

As I said, you either start with reflect on, then you oneshot yourself.

Or you start with reflect off, then it rewards speed clear because the mob is dead before it starts reflecting.

TLDR: Since this post is very long I am gonna do a TLDR. The math presented by LaiTash earlier is wrong. The calculations, game mechanics and assumptions are wrong (If they were right even a build with 50k dps wouldn't be able to survive reflect because they would receive several thousands of damage per second and we all know from experience that's not true). Reflect isn't hard to deal with and often you just need to scale defenses that are generally useful such as +max resist or increased physical mitigation.

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LaiTash wrote:

Calling someone's arguments invalid doesn't mean they are. Zero calculation? Ok here you go:

True but your arguments have been invalid so far and I can tell from reading the first few lines of your example that your math is way off.

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LaiTash wrote:

Flicker strike character with 40000k DPS. Something you would expect from a pure glass cannon.

variables:
M = 0.2 - reflected damage multiplier
R = 0.55 - reflect reduction multiplier from yugul + fortify
D = 0.6 - dodge multiplier
B = 0.85 - basalt multiplier
A = 0.87 - AA multiplier

400000 * 0.2 * 0.55 * 0.6 * 0.85 * 0.87 = 19522

19522 damage per second.

Except no.

This is physical damage so the multiplier is only 0,1. Fortify is not added together with Yugul. So for starters it's:

400000 * 0.1 * 0.75 * 0.6 * 0.85 * 0.87 * 0,8 = 10648.

Also what's the HP pool on this build? Currently you would leech 20% of your total health per second and with new VP it's 40%. If we assume 6k you would leech 2400 hp per second with new VP.

10648 - 2400 = 8248,8 dps taken per second (so far)

So that's the calculation part of the equation so far but there is more to good math than just correct calculations. Assumptions have to accurately depict reality. Yours does not. Why? Because why would any build go melee, deal physical damage and have next to no physical damage mitigation and next to no physical reflect mitigation x)? I mean that's just a poorly made build.

Quite clearly this build is - so far - incomplete and lacks defense in general and way to deal with reflect.

From here on out there are numerous ways to deal with the reflect (and general lack of defense).

One way is to go Lightning Coil + Taste of Hate + Evasion.
Let's say you have 40% chance to evade and your a Pathfinder with Taste of Hate and 75% lightning res. You would take: 3846,8 total damage taken per second.

Now after the leech is taken into account (I assume you can leech enough life for a total of the 40%. For instance through an Atziri's Promise or other mechanics like Blood Rage) that's 1446,8 damage taken per second which is deadly but fairly doable. Especially if you run around with a life flask. (actually it's even less because the Basalt is now 18% and not 15% if go with Pathfinder but you can calculate that yourself if you want to :)



Another way of doing this is not be loony and just build in some physical damage mitigation xD

So let's just assume you are using the Red Trial boots and got 5 endurance charges (1 near Duelist, 1 near marauder). That's a total of 30% additional physical damage mitigation which is added to the 15% we got from Basalt.

For this example it's also kind of important to keep in mind that number of attacks is quite high for a Flicker build due to the implicit more multiplier to attack speed.

So let's start of with the 400000 damage again.

400000 * 0.1 * 0.75 * 0.6 * 0.55 * 0.87 * 0,8 = 6890,4 damage taken per second. With 40% chance to evade that's 4134,24 (which again is a netloss of 1734,24 per second with a hp pool of 6000). However honestly this example feels a bit off. How about we drop the chance to dodge and the chance to evade and go for increased armour instead ?

Let's assume your not the fastest Flicker build out there and got 7 attacks per second (this is not high for a Flicker build).

Each hit equals (400000 x 0,1 x 0,75) / 7 = 4285,7. So each hit hits us for 4285,7 damage on average. Now granted this assumption can be missleading. Maybe you have crit in your build. Maybe you have a very high variance in damage. The build would have to be much more detailed for me do a real calculation.

4285,7 now hits the armour + physical mitigation which is added together. Now let's say you have 20k armour with a Lion's Roar up and running. This isn't a very high armour score and easily doable.

So 20000 / (20000 + 10 x 4285,7) = 31,81%. So you add them together for a total of 31,81% + 45% and get 76,82%. Fortify and arctic armour is added after total physical damage mitigation.

So 4285,7 x 0,2318 x 0,8 x 0,87 = 691,42 damage taken per hit. Multiply by 7 and that's a total of 4840 damage taken per second or 2440 per second after leech. This is is still not good enough but in this example the total physical damage reduction is not very high and the marginal benefit from the final possible 14% reduction (the cap is 90%) is very high.

If we had 90% (For instance by going Juggernaut for the fortify bonus and extra endurance charge + 1 additional endurance charge from the passive tree and oak bandit reward) you would only receive a total of 2088 damage per second (before leech) and 0 damage after leech.

And finally the easy solution: Go Slayer. I don't really feel I need to do this calculation, do I? I mean the total reflect reduction is 75% and the leech is very high (especially with new VP).

So honestly:

Your calculations were wrong from the beginning. Your assumptions weren't accurately depicting a real build. And you know this: Honestly, do you really think a Flicker build with 400k dps with no VP currently has huge problems with reflect? Experience should tell you otherwise.

The math presented above is not perfect. I could (should) go into further detail with crits and the interaction with Armour and correct the flask effectiveness on Basalt. However even with crits it's still possible to achieve 90% physical damage reduction on reflect hits (which is not the same thing as total reflect mitigation which goes much higher than 90%) so the math would up being the same. Also the flask effectiveness just makes things even better for the Pathfinder example.

Also just for the record 6k hit points isn't that high for a physical damage build. You can go even higher. Especially as Flicker. This also makes reflect easier to survive.

I won't go over the rest of your math because it's all based on bad assumptions. It'll just end up being meaningless calculations on assumptions that shouldn't be made in the first place. If you really want me to go over it, say so, and I'll try to find the time to do so.

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LaiTash wrote:

Now let's see what mods we can't do now:

- Phys reflect
- Elemental reflect
- Vulnerability
- No leech
- -12% resists
- reduced flask charges gained
- dodge chance is unlucky
- most likely elemental weakness because with LC it's hard to overcap resists properly

First of all it's okay for builds not to be able to do every map mod out there. The no leech mod is deadly to some builds and something you can completely ignore with other builds. No regen isn't a big deal for someone with VP but can be a big deal for a RF build. So it's okay for us not being able to do each and every mod out there.

Phys reflect. No of course not.
Elemental reflect. Not a problem with the Juggernaut / Slayer setup. A problem with the Pathfinder setup.
- Vulnerability. Yes you can.
- No leech. That has got nothing to do with reflect. No leech is maybe the deadliest mod out there for attack based leech dependent builds. Of course not.
- -12% resists. You can with the Slayer / Juggernaut. I wouldn't recommend it with any build though. Not if you are trying to hit 100 at least.
- reduced flask charges gained. Of course you can. Don't be silly.
- dodge chance is unlucky. Of course you can. It's dangerous but it's not like your whole world collapses if your dodges are unlucky.
- most likely elemental weakness because with LC it's hard to overcap resists properly. Yes you can - curse immunity.





From your previous posts I can tell you stubborn as hell and won't admit you are wrong even when presented with evidence to the contrary. So I'll probably not make you change your mind but hopefully someone else less stubborn will read this and learn how to deal with reflect.

Well, at the point where you take like 2k damage per second after all other things are considered, everything is fine IMHO. You just have to wait and let your leech refill your HP pool after a second and a half of attacking. Which is OK. Plus, after 1.5 seconds the mob is likely dead already anyways.

If you run Flicker Strike BTW, you are likely to hit other mobs as well and thus not get the full reflect each time.

But in any case, bringing monster/player HP and damage somewhat in line would help a lot. Let us clear mobs a bit slower, and not oneshot the entire screen, and at the same time give us some reaction time, at that point reflect will be perfectly fine as long as you are not playing while too tired.

I'm with the OP.

Reflect is just too much against mobs, and now mob density is getting boosted. Throw any AOE spell, even just level 1, into a reflect pack and the 15% - for each target in the pack - is just instant death.
If it was 15% max, regardless of targets affected, then it would be OK. It could still kill those insane DPS paper tigers but an unintentional flame blast into which a reflect pack charged would not be instant death (though, strangely, my flameblast totems never pop to reflect packs, though they have purely normal resistances).

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Frankenberry wrote:

So that's the calculation part of the equation so far but there is more to good math than just correct calculations. Assumptions have to accurately depict reality. Yours does not. Why? Because why would any build go melee, deal physical damage and have next to no physical damage mitigation and next to no physical reflect mitigation

Dude, because I WANT to. I want a phys flicker build on the right side of the tree. Show me some good phys damage mitigation nodes there and i'll take them all. And yes, this build is (mostly) hypothetical.

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Quite clearly this build is - so far - incomplete and lacks defense in general and way to deal with reflect.

Really? Coil, dodge, basalt, phys to lightning and all the stuff and it's STILL NOT ENOUGH?

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So let's just assume you are using the Red Trial boots and got 5 endurance charges (1 near Duelist, 1 near marauder)

Right. Especially when the whole build is on the right side. Or maybe i shouldn't even consider planning my build there if i'm going for physical mellee damage?

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However honestly this example feels a bit off. How about we drop the chance to dodge and the chance to evade and go for increased armour instead ?

Because dodge is nearby and it costs me 5 points to take, while armour is hell knows where. Do not try to lure me there, i'm not going.

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Also just for the record 6k hit points isn't that high for a physical damage build. You can go even higher. Especially as Flicker. This also makes reflect easier to survive.

I think it was 7. Or maybe not. Nevermind. I need to take all the life nodes available on the right side to even reach just that. If i go scion to be able to take the life wheel. And IF i go scion, i can make it like 7500 hp with belly. Or 8500 with Kaom's. But then it's no lightning coil for me. Too bad.

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First of all it's okay for builds not to be able to do every map mod out there. The no leech mod is deadly to some builds and something you can completely ignore with other builds. No regen isn't a big deal for someone with VP but can be a big deal for a RF build. So it's okay for us not being able to do each and every mod out there.

"Not every mod" is not the same as "almost no mod combination".

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Phys reflect. No of course not.
Elemental reflect. Not a problem with the Juggernaut / Slayer setup. A problem with the Pathfinder setup.

Right. And unfortunately we are neither slayer nor we are juggernaut. You're trying to lure me to the left side again.

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Vulnerability. Yes you can.

Spoiler

You should - no matter what - run with an immunity to curse on 1 of your flasks. This is kind of basic on more or less all builds. In the examples above I assumed you have 1 healing flask, 1 x Lion's Roar, 1 x Atziri's Promise, 1 x Basalt (curse immunity), 1 x free spot. For a non-raider / pathfinder this needs to be a crafted flask with immunity to freeze. For the Pathfinder you can do whatever suits you best.

I can't rely on flasks all the time.

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reduced flask charges gained. Of course you can. Don't be silly.

And that is one of the reasons i don't rely on them.

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dodge chance is unlucky. Of course you can. It's dangerous but it's not like your whole world collapses if your dodges are unlucky.

Except that my dodge multiplier from 0.6 becomes 0.84. Sure, no problem.

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most likely elemental weakness because with LC it's hard to overcap resists properly. Yes you can - curse immunity.

And die if i happen to hit a reflect mob while the flasks are down? No thanks.

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From your previous posts I can tell you stubborn as hell and won't admit you are wrong

You wanted calculations - you have them. Yeah i won't admit i'm wrong, why should i actually? I've told you numerious times that YEAH i can live with reflect if i'll make a balanced build. No problem here. Doing that all the time. I've given you an example of a glass cannon build with enough defences for it to NOT qualify as a pure glass cannon, and you're asking why is it not tanky enough, why no mitigation and only 7k life and all that. This is just... crazy.

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BlaqWolf wrote:

I'm with the OP.

Reflect is just too much against mobs, and now mob density is getting boosted. Throw any AOE spell, even just level 1, into a reflect pack and the 15% - for each target in the pack - is just instant death.
If it was 15% max, regardless of targets affected, then it would be OK. It could still kill those insane DPS paper tigers but an unintentional flame blast into which a reflect pack charged would not be instant death (though, strangely, my flameblast totems never pop to reflect packs, though they have purely normal resistances).

ehhhhhh. Reflect is no longer a pack thing. If you are talking about the map mod then... don't do reflect maps you can't handle xD?

In this thread it's reflect on rares we are discussing x)

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Frankenberry wrote:

Fortify is not added together with Yugul. So for starters it's:

Just wanted to point out: yes it is. Reduced damage taken is additive with other relevant sources in the same way increased mods are (which is why reduced damage taken mods, like reduced reflected damage taken, get better the more you've got).

Now Arctic Armor is a less damage taken mod, so that would be multiplicative with everything else, including other less damage taken mods.

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LaiTash wrote:

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Frankenberry wrote:

Dude. I don't even why I bother with this discussion. You have a long line of claims grabbed out out of thin air and you back them up with zero valid arguments or zero calculations.

Calling someone's arguments invalid doesn't mean they are. Zero calculation? Ok here you go:

Flicker strike character with 40000k DPS. Something you would expect from a pure glass cannon.

variables:
M = 0.2 - reflected damage multiplier
R = 0.55 - reflect reduction multiplier from yugul + fortify
D = 0.6 - dodge multiplier
B = 0.85 - basalt multiplier
A = 0.87 - AA multiplier

400000 * 0.2 * 0.55 * 0.6 * 0.85 * 0.87 = 19522

19522 damage per second.

1) Physical reflect is 10%, not 20%, so cut all that in half.

2) You're using Dodge, why the hell are you using a basalt flask instead of a quartz? Even if you've only got the 40% dodge from acro and the minor nodes after it, a quartz is 16.7% ave damage reduction as opposed to basalt's 15%. And it works against elemental/chaos and gives you phasing and is much more charge efficient. Even at just 40% dodge it'd knock off a couple percent off that reflected dps, and it'd just be a better choice for your build in general.

And considering your dodge should probably be slightly higher than that (say, from Kraityn's 3%, maybe a bit from gear, possibly raider's 6%...) it'd be an even higher average damage reduction than that.

3) If the plan is to go to the right side of the tree, you can grab Master of Force for another 10% reduced phys reflect taken, which would chop off another ~18% of that while giving you some damage.

4) 400000 pure phys dps? Don't get me wrong, I prefer pure phys now that brutality and maim are options, cuz dealing with resists annoys me even though phys-conversion can reach theoretical higher dps, but most glass cannons would go hatred and maybe HoA, possibly added fire and atziri's flask, that kinda stuff. So of that 400k dps, only a portion is going to be reflected with either type of reflect. Also, in particular if you're non-crit, poison is an option to replace some hit dps if you don't wanna go elemental, to kick out some of that reflectable dps.

5) Where's your evasion? You're on the right side of the tree, but you make no mention of the evasion that you likely at least have a little of from gear and passives, and could have a lot of with a jade flask active. That's another significant source of damage reduction, unless you're using Lycosidae. And if you're using that, it's kinda like complaining that using abyssus is getting you killed; if you live by the hits can't be evaded, you risk dying by it too... it's one of the only things that balances that shield out, frankly.

6) Endurance charges. Even the base 3 is 12% reduction. Not insanely hard to maintain, if a little annoying. Takes up one gem slot and a quarter of a second here and there.