Statistical customisation invites tinkering, and the passive tree does not allow it

"

Sickness wrote:

"

Mr_Cee wrote:

People like Sickness havent this in mind - they claim to put the difficulty setting into one common league, and thats what I'm argumenting against.

I have absolutely no problem, with different leagues with different scaled difficulty - thats what leagues are made for, and how its announced to be desired by the devs.

Why are you dragging me into this? They are discussing respecs here.

Neither the partial aspect we discussed, nor the thread in general, was/is about respecs.

"

Sickness wrote:

And stop putting words in my mouth, would you?

Your campaign to plaster my name to every opinion you disagree with is pathetic.

The quoted post was the first ever, I used another players name (than the one I reply) to explain something, so no campaign there at all...

"

Sickness wrote:

"Sickness don't want seperate leagues for different types of difficulty"

I corrected your statement to the right topic, with an underline to give it sense.
If this is not your opinion, you should better clarify your suggestions to be less missunderstood.

"

Sickness wrote:

"Sickness only want endgame content"
"Sickness want to turn this into a wow clone"
"Sickness don't care about leveling"

I never said anything like that.

"

Sickness wrote:

I'm getting sick of reading all the bullshit from you.

Same here.

"

Mr_Cee wrote:

Neither the partial aspect we discussed, nor the thread in general, was/is about respecs.

Yes it was. Or are you saying that ManiaCCC's last posts has not been about respec?

"

Mr_Cee wrote:

The quoted post was the first ever, I used another players name (than the one I reply) to explain something, so no campaign there at all...

It's not the first time you plastered your some opinion on me with no basis at all.

"

Mr_Cee wrote:

I corrected your statement to the right topic, with an underline to give it sense.
If this is not your opinion, you should better clarify your suggestions to be less missunderstood.

You didn't correct it at all. Do you even know what thread you are posting in now??

I can add that I don't want seperate leagues for different types of difficulty unless there is a way to transfer characters from the lower difficulty leages to the higher difficulty leagues.
But I have thoroughly explained why different difficulty settings in the same league is not an issue.
But that really isn't the topic of this thread, so I dunno why you bring it up.

"

Mr_Cee wrote:

"

Sickness wrote:

"

Mr_Cee wrote:

these things are never meant as the main, mandatory part of the game, and if the dev's stay on their route, never will be/become.

Have I said differently?

At least it sounds all the time, as if the route to reach high level/"end game" has to be as short as possible and counted as unneccessary waste of time...

"

Mr_Cee wrote:

So why is there so hard to understand, that your opinion of fun (in important parts) doesnt fit the concept GGG aimed to put into action, is contrary to all the players who want to play the game instead of rushing trough? This could ruining their fun too...

Disclaimer: I dont refuse to add content on the upper edge of the game, but I dont agree to make everything else before insignificant: it is not out of the way, it IS the way.

That are some things more that you pulled completely out of the blue. It's just absurd.

"

RodHull wrote:

"

ManiaCCC wrote:

You can read just this thread and see many people wont continue playing with current system..and many already stopped because of current standpoint against respec system.

Thats strange cause the only person I remember stating they wont play because of this was you. So maybe you should check your facts before making false assumptions, what do you reckon?

I did say that aswell, and my friends, who don't post on the forums, also feel the same.

Did you take a look at the class subforum?
people ask for builds even without starting playing the game.
Do you think it's normal?

Every RPG forum in existence is filled with "help me build my character" threads. Nothing wrong with that at all. However, assuming the system is flawed because people are asking for help IS. Why? Because people, by nature, are lazy... and want to have fun NOW. Again, nothing wrong with that, why not have fun sooner rather then later? Makes sense.

However, again, understanding human nature is one thing but capitulating every demand of the masses is another.

GGG has made their stance very clear on this subject. I see no reason to debate it any further, unless you believe that GGG is ignorant of the issue in some way.

I for one, see no evidence to support that however. GGG clearly recognize a vocal (majority/minority) of players want respecs, and they have clearly stated that they won't have them.

Just like GGG recognizes some % of the player base would like to have cute puppy pets offered in the shop, but have maintained that such options won't be available as they do not fit the mood of the game.

Just like GGG recognizes that some % of the player base want gold, or to eliminate ID/TP scrolls, or any other subject that has been beaten to death on these boards.

Yet, still, people feel the need to bring the same topic up again and again as if they have some kind of divine revelation on the subject that everyone else fails to grasp. When, in actuality, it's all matters of opinion and nothing else.

This discussion once again got stranded in the old 'easy mode' morass.

My point is not that the lack of respecs make the game too hard. My point is that you are unable to experiment with masteries unless you have oceans of free time, removing a very fun element from the game and replacing it with a grind (or a wait until someone else solves the puzzle and you can copy his build).

The fact that you can beat the game with no passives at all is irrelevant. Why bother looking and trading for items that are 1% better than what you have, when you know your passives are suboptimal to start with?

Face it: Rerolling with new skill gems and a new character class is fun. Rerolling the exact same character because you messed up and going through the exact same motions is not fun.

......

League of Legends

A good test case because both forms of respec are present in the same game and fulfill the same function.


>> The existence of freely respeccable masteries in LoL does not result in copycat builds, quite the opposite. Some people do copy progamer builds, but once they learn more about they game they tweak them to their liking.

None of my mastery pages are similar to the progamer ones. For instance, I swear by the reduced recall delay mastery so I can recall in safety without risking a gank. Conversely I think movement speed masteries are not particularly useful. Most progamers have the opposite opinion.

Why did I not copy the exact mastery pages used by every progamer? Because I had the opportunity to fiddle with them and try some alternatives, during which I discovered that I perform better with reduced recall delay than with faster movement speed.


>> Otoh my rune pages are exactly the same as the ones everyone else uses. Why? Because runes are bloody expensive.

I want to experiment with them. I want to see if flat attack damage would have enough of an early game impact to win the lane right there and then. I want to know if gold bonus quints would be a good idea on a jungler, allowing me to farm less and gank more.

But I cannot experiment because I don't have tens of thousands of points to spend on new rune setups, most of which won't work well anyway. Perhaps that gold bonus jungler runepage would have too little hp left to gank, perhaps flat attack damage is not enough to break through enemy healing and actually force the opponent out of the lane.

So I just go to mobafire and mindlessly go with what the highest rated guide tells me to, like a sheep.

And to clarify: If the passive tree was a skill tree I would have no problems whatsoever with the current respec options, in fact I would be okay if respecs were removed entirely.

Why? Because you pick the skills you like the most, so there is little need for respecs after you choose your favourite skills.

Passives have nothing to do with which ones you 'like the most' and everything with which ones 'are the best for my build'.

That's why you can spend your passives wrong but you cannot get the wrong skill gems.

"

allbusiness wrote:

Path of the Exile is not a casual game. Stop with it already. Get over it, it's not changing, and if you don't like it then leave. The devs have already stated they are NOT going to do a full respec system. They may make it easier, but it's still not going to be a full respec.

Look.. I think.. I believe..at some point..maybe post release..maybe pre-release we have chance that respec system will be changed.. maybe in separated league..maybe overall for everyone. Your smart words how PoE is not casual or how respec system wont change means nothing at all.. so don't waste your words. Provide feedback ... or just don't post at all.

Actually, according Beta manifesto ..some respec changes are planned or are being discussed..so there is my hope.

Anyway..there is nothing hardcore about not having respec system.. clicking on passives is as hardcore as cleaning windows or whatever.. With or Without respec system..anyone can just look at current cookie cutter build and recreate it. If you want be hardcore, you are playing hardcore mode...where every mistake counts for real actually.. you are challenged by difficulty ..not viability of respec system. So keep this in mind.

"

kodr wrote:

What would you suggest?
"hey here's is a key for the beta, install the game so we can play."
"what? you want to spend 2 more hours to plan your build, huh ok..."

Or I can just let him screw his build so he can cry in a little corner when I tell him he should reroll a new character, like you all tell us here...

Awesome, thanks for the advices!

kodr, it's not possible to "screw your build" to the degree you suggest unless you split your build between two different weapons. There are way too many passive points and too few relevant passives. A "thousand" passives may sound like a lot, but with so many passives being mutually exclusive or totally irrelevant, the actual number of options is much smaller.

Ultimately you end up getting most everything near your starting point that's relevant to your weapon no matter what. You don't need to worry about respeccing until you're at least level 80 because you can just keep getting more points and go for whatever it is you want.

"

BrotherLaz wrote:

And to clarify: If the passive tree was a skill tree I would have no problems whatsoever with the current respec options, in fact I would be okay if respecs were removed entirely.

Why? Because you pick the skills you like the most, so there is little need for respecs after you choose your favourite skills.

Passives have nothing to do with which ones you 'like the most' and everything with which ones 'are the best for my build'.

That's why you can spend your passives wrong but you cannot get the wrong skill gems.

BrotherLaz, I absolutely cannot understand where you are coming from in the slightest. Passives have EVERYTHING to do with what skills you like the most. Minion passives affect minion skills. Cold passives affect cold skills. One-handed sword passives affect one-handed sword skills.

Everything in the skill tree is built around gradually specializing your character towards a smaller and smaller category of skills exactly as you describe.

Furthermore, once you've decided on which skills you like, you just take all the passives nearby which apply to those skills. You keep taking those passives and in the end you've exhausted the vast majority of passives relevant to your main skill, and all that's left is the choice of whether to take a handful of short branches at the outer edges of your tree, something which the respec system is totally adept at handling.

It sounds to me like you're conflating the current skill balance as somehow indicative of a problem with the skill tree. The fact that Ice Spear is currently the best main attack spell has absolutely nothing to do with the viability of the passive tree. The devs can continue to adjust skill stats and fix that. It doesn't require any changes to the passive tree.

"

Mr_Cee wrote:

Neither the partial aspect we discussed, nor the thread in general, was/is about respecs.

Comedy gold.

I think their is a global undervaluing of the passive tree. At least I get that impression from BrotherLaz, and others.

I have played a high level ranger, I have played a high level ranged-templar.. a Rangelar? Anywho, the 2 played totally different entirely because of the passives I chose.

The ranger was all about speed and crits. the Templar was all about elemental damage and the aoe of detonate dead.. and I had pets. Anyways, two ranged builds both utilizing DD, but for 1 of the 2 it was a side-skill that I used situationally, for the other, it was my bread and butter, and what reinforced that fact? The passives I chose.

The skill's you choose are the broad strokes, the passives are the fine details. Both are equally valuable if your goal is to create a master-peace.

-----------------------------

As far as respecs.. lets flog the dead horse some more.

What made people play D2 for a decade without respecs? IT WAS A FUN GAME.

That's all that matters, if you aren't willing to play the game again, then you aren't having fun. period.

Even if you got the easy respec, that will only keep you around awhile before you move on to something else.

It isn't a fix, it's a patch.


------------------

That said, I have 0 issues with respecs (because I am the happy camp that will play no matter what because... I love the game). GGG however, seems to, given every single thing they have said on the topic. So, I concede the point to them, I don't continually raise it and argue for it.