Statistical customisation invites tinkering, and the passive tree does not allow it

I believe you currently get 8 respec points just for finishing the quests in all 4 difficulties.

I got 3 orbs of regret without any dedicated "farming" time while leveling from 1-60 in HC.

People offer to trade orbs of regret for other orbs like regal/scouring/gcp.

Also, if you aren't happy with a character, roll another character, learn more about the game, and gather more regret orbs while doing so and go back to your broken character and fix it.

...

If you need to respec more than 10-15 nodes, you are probably better off rolling a new character anyway.

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Mr_Cee wrote:

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kidshazam wrote:

those 40 hours you spent were all for nothing

for the very last time - those 40 hours spent should (have) be(en) worth 40 hours of enjoyment, if not: you're doing something completely wrong here (or with the game).

If I'm playing the game the way it teaches me, and I don't enjoy myself, that is a fault in the design of the game, not my own. If I select passives that end up being ultimately untenable, and I had no way of knowing that, that is faulty game design.

The first time, yes, I am enjoying myself. But when I find out that I was doing it all wrong, and the game let me do it all wrong, that irks me. That's like someone watching over my shoulder, knowing that I am going to fail, but not saying a word, as if to teach me a lesson.

And then I have to spend 40 hours playing through the same content, albeit possibly different enough skills and passives to make it interesting again, except I still don't know if the build I am making is tenable. And this goes on and on until I stop experimenting, stop trying to find out what is fun, and simply look to the forums, or a wiki, or some spreadsheet, find out what actually works (which the game refused to tell me), and then enjoy myself, because someone else got lucky and found the build that works. And even then, it might not be a fun playstyle for me, at which point I'm going to throw my hands up in the air and play something I do enjoy.

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kidshazam wrote:

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Wittgenstein wrote:

]we want to make sure that players can't respec large amounts of their character trivially and are encouraged to start a new character if they want an entirely different build."

A subpar build that is inefficient at basic gameplay is not something trivial, and is not something anyone should be punished for. If I put time and effort into the game, I damn well better get something back, because if you tell me "Oops, those 40 hours you spent were all for nothing!" I'm going to either assume any amount of time I spend is worthless and find something better to do with my time, or I'm going to look up a build that actually works so I don't have to waste any more time figuring things out myself.

Learning isn't a worthless activity you know. If it matter SO much that your build is "perfect" (what does that mean?), wait a month and copy someone else who actually tried to learn the game.

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kidshazam wrote:

"

Mr_Cee wrote:

"

kidshazam wrote:

those 40 hours you spent were all for nothing

for the very last time - those 40 hours spent should (have) be(en) worth 40 hours of enjoyment, if not: you're doing something completely wrong here (or with the game).

If I'm playing the game the way it teaches me, and I don't enjoy myself, that is a fault in the design of the game, not my own. If I select passives that end up being ultimately untenable, and I had no way of knowing that, that is faulty game design.

The first time, yes, I am enjoying myself. But when I find out that I was doing it all wrong, and the game let me do it all wrong, that irks me. That's like someone watching over my shoulder, knowing that I am going to fail, but not saying a word, as if to teach me a lesson.

And then I have to spend 40 hours playing through the same content, albeit possibly different enough skills and passives to make it interesting again, except I still don't know if the build I am making is tenable. And this goes on and on until I stop experimenting, stop trying to find out what is fun, and simply look to the forums, or a wiki, or some spreadsheet, find out what actually works (which the game refused to tell me), and then enjoy myself, because someone else got lucky and found the build that works. And even then, it might not be a fun playstyle for me, at which point I'm going to throw my hands up in the air and play something I do enjoy.

Not trying to come off as arrogant or anything, but you seriously are playing the wrong game if you're looking for something to hold your hand while playing.


Two, alot of silly builds are actually viable all the way into Chaos.

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kidshazam wrote:

If I'm playing the game the way it teaches me, and I don't enjoy myself, that is a fault in the design of the game, not my own.

If the way a game is designed for to be played, dont enjoy you, you really should consider to look for another one -
Especially, if there are lots of people enjoying this way. There is a reason, why chess have other rules than backgammon or skat,to please and enjoy different people with different opinions.

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Sairony wrote:

A case can be made in the other direction. If it's free to experiment on the grid people will find the optimal solution fast, after which everyone re-specs to it.

THIS

Please dont allow free respecs, the current level is more than enough, after 3 playthroughs you get 6 free respec points plus regret orbs (which I have access to around 8 of them and Im hardly a hardcore player) so thats more than enough imo.

Allow free respecs and watch every build become homogenised inside 1 week tops.

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Wittgenstein wrote:

Learning isn't a worthless activity you know.

It is when there is nothing to achieve, when the things you are learning have no useful applicability. Essentially, I'm saying that studying this game and its systems is not worth my time; it is an endeavor I have committed to many times in the past, and something I always regret and look upon as wasted time. Games are no longer something I devote my mind to, but a relaxing leisure time activity. I have enough places and events in my life where I need to apply hard work and intelligence, and those result in the betterment of my life in one way or another.

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Not trying to come off as arrogant or anything, but you seriously are playing the wrong game if you're looking for something to hold your hand while playing.

That is entirely arrogant, but I'm sure your intentions were sincere.

I don't need or want my hand held. What I want is a reasonable solution to this system; either make it clear to players exactly how the mechanics work and how builds will turn out in the end, or allow us to freely explore and experiment with the skill map.

I recognize the first could be solved by the time the game is completed, and I certainly hope the developers do that, but given the nature of the game I am not optimistic.

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kidshazam wrote:

The first time, yes, I am enjoying myself. But when I find out that I was doing it all wrong, and the game let me do it all wrong, that irks me.

A game that not let you make wrong decisions at all, that not serve consequences for your decision; that avoid all possible kind of drawbacks -

is just boring, boring to hell.

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kidshazam wrote:

If I'm playing the game the way it teaches me, and I don't enjoy myself, that is a fault in the design of the game, not my own. If I select passives that end up being ultimately untenable, and I had no way of knowing that, that is faulty game design.

Wrong. If the game misleads you into picking a bad build, then yes, there is somewhat of guilt in the games systems, but that refers more to a tutorial and/or how things are explained, not the design itself.

If you find that you do not enjoy a game when playing how it is meant to be played, providing there are no glaring bugs that prevent you from enjoying it then it might mean that the game is just not for you. There is nothing a designer can do to if his idea of a game does not cater to your individual preferences. Call it "not my cup of tea" and searching for a compromise? Sure. But its not faulty design. Its just that your expectations of the game are different.

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kidshazam wrote:

The first time, yes, I am enjoying myself. But when I find out that I was doing it all wrong, and the game let me do it all wrong, that irks me. That's like someone watching over my shoulder, knowing that I am going to fail, but not saying a word, as if to teach me a lesson.

That is how practical exercises, especially at college work. You are given a controlled environment where you are free to make as many mistakes as you can, which are then explained to you and you learn from them. If this irks you and you would be preferred to be hand-held? There are courses like that too, of course. But again, calling something "flawed" just because it does not fit your personal tastes.

In game terms, unless you consistently do something wrong for 50+ levels (one would think that you would realize that something is not going right earlier), you can respect those abilities rather easily. Past that? Still not impossible. You seem to base your assumption on the scenario that someone consistently and without thought breaks their build without realizing it until it is complete. Its just not how things work in game.

Also, you do have a skill builder. You can pre plan your build. However, the games design expects you to bear the consequences if you are wrong. Such things are known to happen and, strangely enough, are fun for some people. As is playing with a build that is not optimized by hours of rearranging the same skills over and over. The respec system is an attempt at a compromise - full respecs are possible, but costly. If you are talking about tweaking and optimization which typically does not require you to change entire builds in the first place and the current repsec system (while it might need some tweaking one way or the other) allows just that.

i just dont get some ppl...One of the charms of an arpg is to reroll several characters, experiment with builds and overall see what the game has to offer.It's not like we play this genre for the quests, right? And besides, anyone who's played d2 had at least 3-4 chars in a situation where there was little more in the way of info...
anyway, my 2 cents