Playing Grim Dawn, questioning online nature of PoE

@Destructodave

I fully agree with your statements. As I already wrote in the OP (which, I'm sure, you read... :p) one of my big draws to PoE was the fact it has trade, and economy was (supposed to be) balanced around it.
Back in the days it was pretty rough and make-shift, so I just played it as is, thinking that they would eventually improve it, given the game was marketed as trade based.

We're in 2017 now, and we still use the same, unchanged system.
And to answer your question what I will be playing in 3-4 years - probably none. Unless Grim Dawn manages to hold me for longer (or adds some multiplayer/online features, no idea, but that is unlikely), releases another DLC or whatnot.
Or, well, GGG actually does something about the horrible situation we see now.

Community/online/social games will always outlive single-player offline games. If they manage to gather community around it. But this does not mean that online games cannot die or do wrong.

That said, I can't really blame GGG for playing it safe. There are people livelihood at stakes here. Fiddling too much with your game can kill it. But in my honest opinion, neglecting it and refusing to do anything about long-standing problems can be as lethal. And I'm not saying here that PoE will die - it probably won't.
But I'd much rather see it (finally) grow to be actually popular and finished, and not feel like a indie game from 2002.

I think PoE "diversity" is largely an illusion - I have so little drive these days to build new characters because there's a lack of variety beyond visual differences in a lot of the skills, along with a lack of meaningful decisions during gameplay.

I've been playing Grim Dawn recently, and I find the gameplay to be far more engaging and diverse.

I think PoE has two things going for it - the opportunity for significantly faster paced gameplay (which I think is a very good thing, contrary to the opinions of so many players) and very good variety when it comes to making currency in the endgame. Unfortunately earning currency loses its appeal once you realize that a 50ex build will only be marginally improved by investing 500ex or 5K ex, because does it really matter whether you take down shaper in 5 seconds rather than 1.5 seconds for instance? Earning currency just for the sake of currency itself isn't enough of a motivator I find.

Secondly, although the fast playstyle is quite exhilirating, if offers few meaningful decisions during gameplay. You simply spam your skill and maybe your movement skill along with your flasks.

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DicemanX wrote:

I think PoE "diversity" is largely an illusion - I have so little drive these days to build new characters because there's a lack of variety beyond visual differences in a lot of the skills, along with a lack of meaningful decisions during gameplay.

I've been playing Grim Dawn recently, and I find the gameplay to be far more engaging and diverse.

I think PoE has two things going for it - the opportunity for significantly faster paced gameplay (which I think is a very good thing, contrary to the opinions of so many players) and very good variety when it comes to making currency in the endgame. Unfortunately earning currency loses its appeal once you realize that a 50ex build will only be marginally improved by investing 500ex or 5K ex, because does it really matter whether you take down shaper in 5 seconds rather than 1.5 seconds for instance? Earning currency just for the sake of currency itself isn't enough of a motivator I find.

Secondly, although the fast playstyle is quite exhilirating, if offers few meaningful decisions during gameplay. You simply spam your skill and maybe your movement skill along with your flasks.

Havent played GD, so cant comment on that, but you did sum up my feelings about PoE pretty nicely.

Although I do think, that experience is the key problem here.
As veterans we know, we´ll need 180% life at least, we know how to scale the dmg of our builds, we know what defenses and utilities we´ll need and we know where its located on the tree - and as a result, we would create pretty much the same tree for the same build. There are very few options or variations to chose from. Same goes for gearing options.

I would expect its the same with GD but your are not experienced yet.
Ultimately - the longer you´d play the game - it would be a similar result.
You just know what to pick, when to grab it and how to get it.


Enjoy the fresh feeling while it lasts :)

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Perq wrote:

You wrote a nice big wall of statements, but nothing to actually back them up.

Most glaring of flaws in your arguments: do you really think making a game that is based around trading and then making (and leaving it that way for years) a terrible trade system is better than a game that is made with no trade in mind?

Trade is not a simple feature you add to the game. If you decide to balance the whole game around it, you better make it work. GGG did not. Not only that, but they actively refuse to.

Yes I do. Games without economies are complete snoozefests. That is my argument.

What's to even back up? How does it not "work"? The trade system we have now is indefinitely better than everything we have ever had. I feel like you either haven't really played the game as it evolved or you forgot somehow or you just want to complain for the sake of complaining.

Trade Chat?
PoeMarkets?

These are both infant iterations of what is now poe.trade. The efficiency we have now is through the roof compared to what was availible to us in the past.

As someone else said in this thread, I also spend, like what, <1% of my time trading for items for a build? Whoopdie do. Selling is another story, which is one of the things that makes this game great. You have to spend time doing it and you are possibly foregoing other opportunities. Always a tradeoff.

You know what was actually a terrible trade system? When I had to spam trade chat for 3 weeks to buy 1500 vaal orbs to 6 link a corrupted +1 chest. That was actually terrible. PoE Trade? Not so much...

Don't have the time or the energy anymore to read all the replies, but POE is online only because thats how the game makes money. End of story really.

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goetzjam wrote:

Don't have the time or the energy anymore to read all the replies, but POE is online only because thats how the game makes money. End of story really.

Damn man don't strain those eyes or sit in your chair too hard you may break something :)

Your statement highly doubtful. This is a game that was always intended to be online regardless if it was F2p or B2p. They marketed a strong player based economy, you simply can't have that with an offline game.

Think about it like this, if everyone had the ability hack to level 100 with 6t1 gear in every slot, do you think the game would still be around and this would be the biggest expansion in terms of playerbase? Probably not, we may have had 1 expansion so far like Grim Dawn. Having the game online protects its longevity and integrity. If I want something, guess what I have to earn it play the game. No shortcuts, no cheating, no steroids. Grind and do the time. The pull to the path of least resistance should not be underestimated.

Just going to drop my experience in here since I've been playing Grim Dawn lately as well.
(a comparison in the context of the online nature of PoE, not just a review)

Combat
I've been enjoying Grim Dawn's melee combat a lot more than PoE, and that means a lot to my personal play style. I feel like I can live longer in GD, and there are moments where you can see during combat that things aren't going your way and you can retreat, take some time to recover, maybe pull an enemy away from others, take out the ranged things plinking away at you before you go take on the stronger enemy on its own, and finally your recovery abilities can keep up with the damage you're taking. That interaction there is missing in my PoE experience. PoE is a lot more binary: you kill enemy fast, or enemy jumps on you and kills you, with not much I can do about it (except totems/minions, where I feel I can be more strategic in battle.) (as a Melee, I'm really hating the Aether fire ground effects around some areas in GD, where if I were ranged, it wouldn't matter at all)

I'm not too keen on pretty much all of the devotion skills I'm using being the equivalent of PoE's "Cast while Channeling" based functionality. That's getting a little boring, but they're the effects I want for my build (mainly healing).

Whereas Path of Exile has/had(primarily on my previous computer) disconnect errors, screen freezes on strongbox opening, random lag, and game elements that punish lag ... Grim Dawn has run flawlessly smooth. I never worry about internet going down or crashes. It feels like a polished complete game. If ever PoE were to release an offline SSF-focused oldschool box-game edition, I'd likely buy that.

Bosses
I agree that boss kills feel much more rewarding in GD. It's worth it to go after bosses, even side bosses that you could otherwise ignore. GD bosses feel a lot more engaging than PoE, not because of mechanics of the fight, but they take longer to kill, they don't one-shot you (at least none have even come close to one-shotting me yet), and the win feels earned, and sometimes epic. I've never felt that way in PoE, even with the doubled HP of map bosses, it's not the same - that just gives the bosses more chances to one-shot you.

PoE, using non-meta skills, is more of a scramble to avoid one-shot death while trying to plink away at the boss's health every once in a while - don't even try to imagine the horror of bosses with regenerating energy shields - ugh. And then you take into consideration that it's an online game with lag once in a while, and now that boss you were kiting randomly pops up on top of you and hits you... yeah... fun...


Economy/Trade
I've played games with economies, trade, auction houses, personal shops, email trade, no trade, and offline. Now, most of the online games I've enjoyed have been subscription based with auction houses for trade (FFXI was my favorite and it was going strong for over a decade). I generally LIKE trading, and I would actively list multiple items per day, making enough currency to fund my consumable supplies for my adventures and save up for more expensive purchases of gear.

I won't touch Path of Exile's version of "trade" with a ten foot pole. The aversion the game devs of PoE have toward an Auction House is what gives me little hope for the future of PoE for myself, despite all the good points. I KNOW AH's don't ruin the economy of trade focused games. There are MANY games with AH's... the failure of a real money AH in 1 ARPG is not sufficient evidence to tell me an in-game automated buy-out-enabled offline trading system would ruin PoE. I'm sorry, but it's getting silly.

The fact that PoE's entire drop system is balanced around trading, and trade beyond the actual in-person transaction, is not even an integrated part of the game's interface, is beyond baffling, and I will never consider this game a good product while it's in such an abysmal state. Until then, I play the SSF servers and enjoy the drops I find, because they have value to me, because they're upgrades or garbage. Beyond usefulness to my current or future builds, they have no value. I like not worrying about how much an item would sell for. It gives items good items for my build real value, IMO.

If you get all your gear from an AH, drops mean nothing to you personally, since upgrades are so few and far between. All you're doing in PoE is collecting currency. The whole adrenaline rush of getting a good drop in a loot-based game, is ruined by having trade of ANY SORT in this sort of ARPG - but they must have an economy - that's what makes this sort of game fun? Feels so contradictory to me. I guess their replacement for that feeling of getting the drop is instead finding an online buyer or seller who agrees to a price you like.

GD, on the other hand, is offline and the drops are rewarding so far. I feel a sense of progression, though I wish I could find a few more pieces with good resistances with the special bonus effects I've come to enjoy from my lower level gear that's getting outdated. I've found plenty of better pieces, but not good enough to warrant replacing the special effect pieces that help keep me alive in longer fights. I'd equate this problem in GD, with PoE's finding gear with good resists, but not having the number of slots or the right colors and links that you need for your current skills.


Pricing/Content Releases
I come from old-school gaming, where you buy a cartridge, and that's the game. Success of the game is in how good the game is, and companies measured success in number of sales and good reviews. Good games got sequels. I don't expect one game to hold my attention as the singular game I play. (I play at least 5 games right now when the mood strikes me - Destiny 2, Elder Scrolls Online, Path of Exile, Grim Dawn, two browser based games, and tomorrow, Assassin's Creed Origins (still have Assassin's Creed Freedom's Cry or whatever the subtitle was, that was a free download on PS+, as well as a backlog on my PS3 - a batman game, Star Wars the Force unleashed 1 & 2 that I got in a bundle on sale, Final Fantasy Lightning Returns (on the last day, but never finished the story) etc.)

I'm happy to buy games when I think they'll be worth the money (in Destiny 2's case, it was only because I have a friend who got it, and he wanted my help in his clan to get the weekly clan xp - I generally hate shooters, and the game wasn't worth the price tag at all) But I haven't spent a single cent on Path of Exile, because I don't think it's worth it at all based on the developer's design decisions (primarily the Labyrinth, but also their sledge-hammer-to-swat-a-fly "balancing" methods and over-reliance on RNG for everything, and would you like some RNG with that?). On the other hand, I bought Grim Dawn's loyalist pack when it was on sale, and I'd do it again.

Now, we're in this online age where games are sold while in what I'd consider beta testing condition, they're never "done", and they're constantly in development. Instead of sequels, they release DLC, updates, add-ons, etc. F2P games like PoE rely on continued sales of macrotransactions tied to content releases, instead of box sales. I'm not sure I'm sold on the whole DLC/not done system we see today, and I'm not happy with it.

I mean, if a game is good, and it reduces development costs to just release more content for the game as DLC or a paid expansion, built on the same engine instead of creating a whole new game as a sequel, I'm glad that's an option... but I don't really see that being the case (especially with Destiny 2... what a disaster, as sequels go). And pricing DLC at the same price point as a complete game REALLY gets on my nerves sometimes. And yet, people pay it, and make things worse.

This game's supporter packs are crazy prices for what you get. I know this is entirely subjective value of money, and some people have money to burn, so they have no problem spending as much money as an entire game on a single set of armor and a forum title, but not me. And I have a personal aversion to paying extra for things that I think should be part of the core experience - inventory is way too small, currency tab, essence tab, TRADE tab... yeah, I know this is how they keep themselves afloat, but the rest of the game isn't worth it to me to fork over money, especially for these things. Such choices turn me off to even wanting spend money if I had it, on this game, when there are so many better uses for my money.


There ya go. That's my take on it. (some of it went outside the scope of this thread, and I apologize, but I doubt I'll find another related thread to put the comments)

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aldorus wrote:

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grepman wrote:

what are these huge differences outside of the tip of the iceberg endgsme?

one doesn't see the gap in skill power until t15s, and I'd argue really t16s. beachhead are a joke and most t15 bosses still don't have enough health imo

the offense is best defense mantra can take any skill and make it work as long as you stack damage - and that's too easy since ascendancies - very long into the game. take something generic like a berserker with vp get some hp pool, maybe go mom. take almost any skill, profit.

Through my glasses, this is not true for skills that need to counter reflect. And that is a lot of them. This league, I went meta (RF zerker), my friend did not. I had to reroll maps so many times, because he "could not do reflect, could not do no regen, could not...". That really opened my eyes.

So I think by saying "there is a gap between meta skills and the rest of them" we need to consider not only pure DPS output, but the whole quality of life, so to speak.

I did say vp, which takes care of reflect. theres also yugul pantheon. yes, you cant run reflect maps, but is it really such a big downside in this day and age ? vp builds run no regen like champs, they already have no regen. reflect maps and no leech maps (super rare) are the only things berserker vp generic build cannot run as far as map mods go

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Zaludoz wrote:

they don't one-shot you (at least none have even come close to one-shotting me yet)

Zantarin can oneshot you in melee range with one of his abilities (especially if he scores crit). However, that ability is telegraphed (has cast time of ~1.5 seconds), and is probably just bugged (because from range, it isnt dangerous at all, and i heard his AI should cast it in melee range, but he still casts it sometimes if you charged to him with a movement skill).

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primarily the Labyrinth

I actually find Labyrinth one of the best add-ons to PoE. And unlike the majority of other PoE content, it feels really rewarding. The only problem is that all "meta builds" (aka "Vaal Pact builds) hate it.

And i agree, prices for microtransactions in PoE are far too high. Even is you live in rich country, such as USA or Germany, you'll feel those prices. And if you live in a poor country, most of those will be just unbearable.

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Zaludoz wrote:

I come from old-school gaming, where you buy a cartridge, and that's the game. Success of the game is in how good the game is

it REALLY bothers me that you're making this statement as an 'old-school gamer'.

because the bolded is clearly inaccurate. planescape:torment, VTM:bloodlines and arcanum combined had less success than mass effect trilogy, yet the former are in most RPG connoisseurs (including myself) top 5 RPGs ever created and cult classics, and the latter is nothing more than a glorified shooter with some generic rpg elements (mostly the first ME, the last two are pretty much glorified shooters)

Grim Fandango sold like shit, yet it's one of the best adventure games ever made.

there are hundreds of examples of companies putting out a game that is great/cult classic and going bankrupt.

commercial success of the game never really correlated to 'how good the game was'.