Playing Grim Dawn, questioning online nature of PoE

@MortalKombat3 Hate those long quote lists, so I won't quote all the things. :P If someone is interested in the context, read post by MortalKombat3 on page 3.

Your filter argument is not great. Unless you played only the early game (which is say, up to level 30), you should know that no "yellow" or "green" items are ever used beyond that point. You may want to pick green items for dem iron bits, tho. So in early you just tick the filter to pick up those, later switch it to blue+.
And while you won't be using every single item you get, you can still:
- store them for usage on other characters (you can do that in PoE too)
- sell them for some cash monies (you can do that in PoE, but most uniques are absolutely not worth selling to vendors)
- dismantle them for crafting components (you can't do that in PoE). These are very useful in crafting other items you actually need. You can craft Epic and Legendary items.
So you are not quite on point with this one.

About crafting then. As I said already, no one uses yellow/green items beyond level 30. Crafting those is mostly pointless. And when it comes to crafting blues/purple, it doesn't stop with gathering materials (and recipes, that are also obtained from factions for faction relations... that is some depth here, eh?). You also add components and augments. We have this in PoE (to a degree) with Enchant system and Master Crafting. It is far more limited, and has far more RNG.
Also, if this is a bad crafting system, and you say you're sorry for me saying it is good, can you name a better one?

Yes, but you are getting lots of blues/purples which you are likely to be able to use. And if you won't, you can dismantle them. Also, components, recipes...

About skills and passive tree.

PoE has more active skills to pick from... but most of them are absolutely useless. Same with classes. You have 19 of them, but in reality people play maybe 4 of them. In GD Solder doesn't necessarily have to be played as a melee tank. Necromancer isn't always a caster. Skill trees provide you with various skills that can be used by different build types, which gives a lot of player choice, even tho there is only 28 of them. Oh wait, this is actually more.
How many builds can you make Deadeye into? Can you be a caster? How many builds can you think of with Champion? Juggernaut? I mean, seriously, no Ascendancy has more than 10 meaningful nodes to pick from. Many of them are you deal more damage. How is that even comparable?

Deeper skill tree? You mean go for every life node and then maybe something skill tree? This one? You also seem to be oblivious to the Devotion system in GD. If you compare passive skill tree and Devotion system, you'll find out that Devotion system actually offers far more meaningful choices, mainly because many of the active skills come from this system. This also makes you use more skills overall.
If you want a good show of a system in PoE, you can take a quick look at Pantheon, and how PoE views choice. The idea may be good, but the final product is underwhelming, to the say the least.

Also, gamechanging keystones? You mean Vaal Pact and Acrobatics? Aka take it whenever you're close. That is not game changing, nor a meaningful choice.
Damage type/legendaries providing only one type of bonus is simply a lie. All high level legendaries provide at least 2 damage type bonuses, because they are mostly made with the final classes that is combination of two sub-classes. Not to mention that sub-classes also use more than one damage type.
Afraid it is just you speaking out of your ass here.

I won't argue with that claim as I only played around 300h of GD. Not arguing that there are no weaker builds and every single one is the same. That is the point of figuring out working builds.
But wild scaling is not present in GD, which is a strong indication that these differences aren't as big as in PoE, when one Support Gem can push your DPS by 40% more damage. Also, in PoE you can get
300% crit multi, in GD it isn't as easy.

There have been a number of thoughtful pieces done about choice versus calculation in game design. Calculations presented as choices essentially boil down to "take this narrowly constructed path to optimize, take any other path if you're OK with being clearly and obviously weaker." Real choice amounts to making decisions (and sometimes tradeoffs) that change your play experience, but without necessarily giving up a lot of in-game effectiveness according to the path you take.

POE gives you lots of calculations with substantial-to-huge dips in character effectiveness if you vary from the optimal path. Grim Dawn gives you a lot of choices because the power gap isn't as large within variations on broadly similar builds and across builds.

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Perq wrote:

- store them for usage on other characters (you can do that in PoE too)

I was using some program: have list of items, so u could collect them; and was loading/saving stash during u actively be in game. Dont remember name, but wont be hard to dig if u r interested.

And regards green items: its worth, but very costly. Some builds need those to cap resists. In my experience: shoulders, boots and pants

This post resonates with me because I have recently been playing GD for the first time in a long time after years of playing POE. Some of these things have already been said, but here's my 2 cents.

Things POE can learn from GD:
1) Killing bosses is actually impactful. Good god did this feel nice to kill a boss and then get items I could use to improve my build. Outside of Uber Atziri, Shaper, Council, etc. that have exclusive gear, it really isn't worth boss kills right now. This alone has kind of killed the type of builds I make these days. I have almost entirely moved away from boss kill skills unless playing a build that has both like wander/barrage. Efficiency has become king.

2) POE is balanced around trade/GD is balanced around SSF. I am an active trader and do enjoy that aspect of the game. But in all honesty, if SSF had higher drop rates or density changes that made it possible for me to morph into end game builds I would like to play, I would play that mode exclusively. But good item drop rates in this game are absurdly low regardless of mode, so there's little incentive to so.

To be clear, I have no issues with this in the regular game & temp leagues and many players go SSF for the added challenge. To accomodate something like this it would almost have to be a 4th type of league that has buffed drop rates and/or configurable mechanics. Sort of a "choose your own adventure" mode where you are essentially playing in a private league. This would be the dream for a player like me who loves POE game play over GD and would prefer to play the game in a standalone fashion.

3) Heroes/Nemesis concept is awesome. Would really love to see a temp league include something like this. It would have an impact on the mapping experience and spice things up IMO.

POE is hands down better at than GD:
1) Gameplay is fast and dynamic. I've got used to GD's pace, but holy crap did it take adjustment after playing POE for years.

2) Map system is great and superior to other games IMO. I've been doing it for years and have never completely grown totally bored with it. Compare that to how you farm for gear in GD and I really couldn't imagine doing that for months on end as there is not nearly as much to do.

3) League concept keeps the game fresh. The real strength of POE is the introduction of new leagues. Only thing I would really like to see if more inclusion of mechanics that can build on one another similar to how ghosts/tempests can interact with other NPCs to empower/change them.

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Perq wrote:

you should know that no "yellow" or "green" items are ever used beyond that point.

Bullshit!
I can show you my endgame character, and he uses "green" ring and weapon. For most builds in GD, for few slots, well-rolled greens will be BiS, and even some "yellows" will be useful (as replacers till you get those BiS "greens"). If you used only epic/legendary gear - you limited yourself with some subpar options, most probably. Even if your build uses full legendaries/epics (it happens, sometimes), it doesnt mean other builds do.

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Perq wrote:

dismantle them for crafting components (you can't do that in PoE). These are very useful in crafting other items you actually need. You can craft Epic and Legendary items.

It was true before AoM expansion, but isnt true anymore.
The most valuable endgame crafting components, added by expansion, CANNOT be gained from dismantling.
Dismantling is useful only if you need excess amounts of "scrap" for RNG"crafting" (but it's just the same to a bit higher crafting costs, that's all). Or if you want to craft some consumables using hearts/brains/blood. But those arent really impactful, anyway.
Most components, that you get from dismantling, are just plain useless. Hearts/brains/blood are also useless, because they cant be used to get a random endgame legendary (you need other components, and those cant be gained from dismantling).
So i should be honest - all that "dismantling" thing now looks almost pointless in GD (and yes, i liked dismantling too).

You also add components and augments. We have this in PoE (to a degree) with Enchant system and Master Crafting. It is far more limited, and has far more RNG.
Also, if this is a bad crafting system, and you say you're sorry for me saying it is good, can you name a better one?[/quote]

I believe, PoE overall has a better one. Even though it is greatly affected by RNG, in PoE crafting allows you to alter items in much more different ways that it is allowed in GD. And many "changes" cant be reverted. Sure, PoE could learn about "guaranteed uniques to craft" (it could help a lot in SSF, if you could craft certain uniques using currency). But overall, i find PoE's crafting deeper than GD's, even though both have a vast space for improvements.

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Perq wrote:

PoE has more active skills to pick from... but most of them are absolutely useless. Same with classes. You have 19 of them, but in reality people play maybe 4 of them.

According to statistics, people play with MANY different classes. Even despite Berserker is a very popular pick, every other class (maybe except of 1-2 most overnerfed ones) is still present in solid %. As for skills - you're right, most of them are useless, but even those that arent, still offer no less choices, than GD. And as i already said, in GD some skills are also kinda weak and arent worth building around them if you want a powerful endgame character, capable of dealing with any shit the game might throw at you.

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Perq wrote:

Deeper skill tree? You mean go for every life node and then maybe something skill tree?

You know, in GD, "life nodes" are also highly valuable, or you risk to end up with squishy glass cannon, that still wont be able to kite anything because mobs often are very fast, have charge skills, large HP pool and are immune to CC. And most build still go for the same "passives" for resistance penetration, OA, etc. I agree with you, that "oneshot meta" in PoE forced players to pick too much life nodes, but i assure you, you wont be able to grind endgame content in GD without MASSIVE defensive investments, too.

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Also, gamechanging keystones? You mean Vaal Pact and Acrobatics? Aka take it whenever you're close.

No, i mean keystones like Avatar of Fire, Mind over Matter, Minion Instability, Necromantic Aegis, etc.

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Damage type/legendaries providing only one type of bonus is simply a lie. All high level legendaries provide at least 2 damage type bonuses, because they are mostly made with the final classes that is combination of two sub-classes. Not to mention that sub-classes also use more than one damage type.

True, but often, those damage types dont match. For example, one item might provide fire and lightning damage, another - fire and chaos, yet another - fire and physical, another - lightning and aether, etc. IF you happen to use fire and chaos damage from your class, you will be "bottlenecked" to items that have both fire AND chaos damage on them, and since in many cases, items dont have "perfectly set" stats for your build (for example, you might loack other valuable stats, etc), you oftenend up with subpar build. Not always - certain damage types might make a good combination - but very often. Aside for few specific builds, most builds uses just ONE damage type, or two damage types that are actually direct and DoT versions of the same damage type (for example, physical and internal trauma).

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But wild scaling is not present in GD, which is a strong indication that these differences aren't as big as in PoE, when one Support Gem can push your DPS by 40% more damage. Also, in PoE you can get
300% crit multi, in GD it isn't as easy.

On that, i agree. Although GD uses insane scaling for "increased damage" (most builds have 2500+% "increased damage"), it's additive, and all other multiplicative scalers are significantly limited. That's why damage doesnt suddenly get "out of hands" in GD, and it feels much more balanced and consistent.

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3) Heroes/Nemesis concept is awesome. Would really love to see a temp league include something like this. It would have an impact on the mapping experience and spice things up IMO.

Nemesis? Yes (although we also have Abaxoth as "universal Nemesis" in PoE, it just spawns too infrequently, and it's only one). As well as whole factions' concept (free gear with set stats for leveling/starter purposes, grinding infamy, etc). As for heroes - they just replace "Champions" in PoE, and they cant even have multiple mods. Only two things are good about them - you actually NOTICE them (because you actually fight enemies in GD, not oneshot them before they even react), and they drop good loot. However, in GD killing trash mobs is often just a waste of time (unless they drop some valuable component or item base) - it's another extreme that i dislike (in PoE, killing trash is too rewarding, in GD, it's too unrewarding).

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jddc78 wrote:

This post resonates with me because I have recently been playing GD for the first time in a long time after years of playing POE. Some of these things have already been said, but here's my 2 cents.

Things POE can learn from GD:
1) Killing bosses is actually impactful. Good god did this feel nice to kill a boss and then get items I could use to improve my build. Outside of Uber Atziri, Shaper, Council, etc. that have exclusive gear, it really isn't worth boss kills right now. This alone has kind of killed the type of builds I make these days. I have almost entirely moved away from boss kill skills unless playing a build that has both like wander/barrage. Efficiency has become king.

...

2) Map system is great and superior to other games IMO. I've been doing it for years and have never completely grown totally bored with it. Compare that to how you farm for gear in GD and I really couldn't imagine doing that for months on end as there is not nearly as much to do.

3) League concept keeps the game fresh. The real strength of POE is the introduction of new leagues. Only thing I would really like to see if more inclusion of mechanics that can build on one another similar to how ghosts/tempests can interact with other NPCs to empower/change them.

I think that leagues might be the biggest factor in keeping players coming back to POE, especially as they're routinely packaged with something new to try out. I also agree that POE has a better end game because of maps. Maps offer a clunkier end game experience than greater rifts, but at least they offer the potential for a greater variety of gaming experiences.

It would probably be pretty easy to improve boss rewards enough to want to bother with them.

All map bosses and map-level bosses can get a "boss buff" that they give to any maps they drop, along with a higher map drop chance (a lower drop rate for items other than maps for map bosses might help to justify this, perhaps). The "boss buff" for maps would be an extra map mod that impacts pack size and/or quantity dropped by mobs. It would make a certain kind of sense that bosses would keep the best stuff for themselves, including maps, and this could be one lore-based way of justifying the "boss buff" for maps they drop.

It wouldn't need to be an extreme buff, especially because it would essentially function as a kind of "more" multiplier. It would just need to be noticeable even at the the lowest buff level and quite noticeable every now and again. That way, those who make a habit out of taking down bosses would be rewarded for the extra time they take.

Regarding PoE map boss reward buffs, I would vote for experience first, experience second, better map drops third.

online nature is the pillar on which PoE stands and I dont think it can ever change. its unlike complexity/balance/even trading which GGG can control or change at will.

D2 had a compromise in that there were anti-dupe mechanisms for online play, but those mechanisms weren't perfect either

so while I dont like the online nature of server-side game and issues that come with it (even though technology is moving to cloud rapidly as well - something that I dont particularly like either), I think its one thing that we need to take as a constant.

what this ALSO means is that once you enter server-side game that is quasi competitive and has hard rules, the whole concept of 'it doesnt affect you let me have my fun' stance doesnt hold any weight like it would in a single player game.

poe is a quasi-online, quasi-mmoish quasi competitive arpg. its not something we have seen more on this scale, and both the bad and the good come in large amounts

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Turtledove wrote:

Regarding PoE map boss reward buffs, I would vote for experience first, experience second, better map drops third.

Adding to that: why does PoE doesn't reward you with exp for quests? D: I always found it mind boggling why GGG went out of their way to make optional quests absolutely useless to the point nobody ever does them.
Don't even get me started on item rewards... lmao.

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Perq wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Regarding PoE map boss reward buffs, I would vote for experience first, experience second, better map drops third.

Adding to that: why does PoE doesn't reward you with exp for quests? D: I always found it mind boggling why GGG went out of their way to make optional quests absolutely useless to the point nobody ever does them.
Don't even get me started on item rewards... lmao.

well, they do - they just cut the middleman and give you passive point outright

the 'gear rewards' are relics from the time when POE was actually a difficult game. times long gone